Permit itinerary requirement

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dave54
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Re: Permit itinerary requirement

Post by dave54 »

Gogd wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 1:17 am
dave54 wrote: Sat Jan 07, 2023 3:26 pm ..Everyone is getting a subsidy, not only ranchers and loggers.
One does not justify the other. Besides there is a big difference between the ecological and financial impacts of folks seeking recreation on government land assets, versus for profit mining, logging and grazing operations.

Ed
Irrelevant. Using the public resource without paying the full price.
We accept it because much of the recreation impact is intangible and difficult to quantify. 3 miles of hiking trail built to specs is equivalent to a one acre clearcut. Actually worse, since the timber sale contract requires using Best Management Practices and mitigation measures, enforced by a Forest Service Timber Sale Administrator. No such monitoring for the average recreationist.

The Forest Service in California has not held a pure green sale (harvesting timber to produce a product) in over thirty years. All timber harvesting is done to derive an ecological benefit -- forest health, wildlife habitat, watershed, fire threat reduction, et al. The market value of the timber removed is incidental to the purpose of the project. The purchaser pays fair market price for the product after allowing for his costs for complying with the terms of the rest of the contract.

Grazing fees are set according to formula written into law. The BLM actually determines the fee each year, and the FS must follow the amount determined by BLM. Neither party in Congress has shown any inclination to alter the fee formula. Several studies have shown public land grazing actually benefits the forest overall, besides being legally required to allow grazing. Without public land grazing, most ranchers would go out of business, and be forced by economics to sell the family ranch. That ranch would become another subdivision and part of urban sprawl. The worst managed ranch is still better habitat than the best planned residential development.

Mining is governed by the 1872 Mining Act. The Forest Service and BLM are required by law to allow mining.

Much of what the public criticizes the land agencies over are legal mandates the agencies must follow whether they want to or not.
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Re: Permit itinerary requirement

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dave54 wrote: Sun Jan 08, 2023 1:52 pm Much of what the public criticizes the land agencies over are legal mandates the agencies must follow whether they want to or not.
All uses of public lands are per one or another legal mandates, which BTW are all subject to change by congressional or agency fiat. None of these regulations and laws are irrevocable. Studies of all forms of commercial activities on public lands have demonstrated positive and negative impacts of these activities, as influenced by the sensitivity of the land tract, as well as the practices of the individual contractors. So this is not so black and white of an issue. And of course the skeptic should question who is sponsoring the individual impact study. I recall reading an impact report claiming the off shore oil extracting projects in the Channel Islands will benefit the marine ecology with the derricks and bottom infrastructure providing habitat for marine flora and fauna. !@#*&%!

One can argue logging is necessary to mitigate the factors contributing to wild and crown fires, but cattle grazing is problematic in some areas currently permitting this activity. Significant swaths of the Southern Sierra have degraded in part due to erosion from grazing cattle. As for mining operations, it has no positive ecological benefit it is mainly for the economic (jobs) benefit of the local population and mine owners. Currently an open pit operation to be conducted by an EU mining corporation is being considered just outside of Mammoth, north of the hot springs. No matter how carefully activity is conducted it will permanently leave a mark in some prime natural habitat. It is questionable if the economic benefit justifies the long term ecological impact. No law requires we permit this specific project to go forward. Such approval is up to the administrative authority empowered to set policy for the area to condone or reject the mining application. While the approval process may include public input from locals and outsiders residing elsewhere in the state, as well as scientists and other interest groups, the director chairing the approval process has the prerogative to draw a conclusion based on his own set of criteria. So there is much more in play here, than what the laws stipulate, and the consequences of a mine in this location is debatable. Thus the impact of recreational use of public space is dwarfed by that of business operating in these spaces, and is the reason I don't equate the fee policy of citizen permits with policies covering commercial permits for activity on public land.

Ed
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Re: Permit itinerary requirement

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The mission Statement of the USFS reads: To sustain the health, diversity, and productivity of the Nation's forests and grasslands to meet the needs of present and future generations.

It's those "needs" that make for controversy. What do we need from our national forests? And are lumber and cattle farming part of those needs?

I'll get the popcorn while the discussion takes off....
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Re: Permit itinerary requirement

Post by dave54 »

From the 1897 Organic Act:

No public forest reservation shall be established, except to improve and protect the forest within the reservation, or for the purpose of securing favorable conditions of water flows, and to furnish a continuous supply of timber for the use and necessities of citizens of the United States; but it is not the purpose or intent of these provisions, or of the Act providing for such reservations, to authorize the inclusion therein of lands more valuable for the mineral therein, or for agricultural purposes, than for forest purposes.

The Multiple Use, Sustained Yield Act expanded the mission of the Forest Service to "Wood, Water, Forage, Wildlife, and Recreation". Although individual parts of a National Forest may be managed for a single purpose, all uses are legal and appropriate. National Forests were created to be used, not aside as museums. Recreation is one of those uses, not the only use.
A more thorough discussion on the original reason the National Forests were created is found in Theodore Roosevelt's autobiography. He devoted an entire chapter to his feelings on public lands.

If one believes the mission and focus of the public lands needs to change, the appropriate venue for that is through the legislative process. Until the laws are changed, the agencies must follow the laws as written now. Many of those laws are mutually exclusive and contradictory, and contrary to the best available science.
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balzaccom
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Re: Permit itinerary requirement

Post by balzaccom »

dave54 wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2023 1:32 pm If one believes the mission and focus of the public lands needs to change, the appropriate venue for that is through the legislative process. Until the laws are changed, the agencies must follow the laws as written now. Many of those laws are mutually exclusive and contradictory, and contrary to the best available science.
And where better to start that discussion than here on High Sierra Topix?

Ooops. Maverick may disagree with that...grin
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Re: Permit itinerary requirement

Post by Wandering Daisy »

That digression should be moved to the "campfire" forum. This post should be to clerify the current permit itinerary requirements.
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Re: Permit itinerary requirement

Post by LMBSGV »

That digression should be moved to the "campfire" forum. This post should be to clarify the current permit itinerary requirements.
+1
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Re: Permit itinerary requirement

Post by Lumbergh21 »

Wandering Daisy wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 9:59 am That digression should be moved to the "campfire" forum. This post should be to clerify the current permit itinerary requirements.
+2 :D
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