Permit itinerary requirement

[ironmike]

A day is not so bad. Again as said before, stuff happens and rangers will be accommodating. But to just pad a permit with several days that will likely not be used is overkill.

[Bishop_Bob]

I don't think "padding" the back end of a permit takes away from the permit access of other users.

[balzaccom]

The biggest impact of most wilderness permits is the first and last day. That's why in many areas they restrict camping in some locations to a single night---they don't want people hiking in to Glen Aulin or Shadow Lake and then spending five days there. Those areas get too much impact.

The concern about someone asking for a couple more days on a permit doesn't affect this--which is why there are no quotas for the second, third fourth, or fifth night out on a trip, unless those nights fall into one of those highly impacted locations.

I have never had a permit rejected because of my itinerary, other than the first night. It's also why the quotas are called trailhead quotas, and not itinerary quotas. The only place there is an itinerary quota in Yosemite is Donahue Pass, unless you count Half Dome--both because of high impacts. Neither is affected by someone asking for, or spending, and extra day at Echo Lake or the Grand Canyon of the Tuolumne...

[Wandering Daisy]

You pick a daily "zone" not a specific campsite. Not sure, but from the permitting I have done this last year, it does not appear that quotas are applied to every zone past the first day. Dusy Basin has a limit of how many days you can stay, but it does not appear to be a total number of people in the zone per day.

Each entity seems to have different "rules" and enforcement policy. For example, Desolation Wilderness has had a zone system for years with quotas per zone; if a zone you wanted to camp in were full, you would have to pick another. But it is a small wilderness area with lots of use, a bit different than most of the Sierra. That said I have not always stayed in my permitted zone in Desolation without consequence. At this point it seems to be more of an attempt to encourage people to spread out, not a hard fast rule. I am not sure they are even doing zone permitting on-line since I have not backpacked in Desolation for years.

Once you get far into the backcountry or off-trail there is little if any regulatory enforcement. It seems the most enforcement is on big name popular trials, JMT, PCT, HST, and Whitney Zone. It is pretty easy on crowded trails for solo hikers to end up bunched up camp as if a large group.

Mid-season I usually stick to my itinerary give or take a day timing. Shoulder seasons I often change the plan, sometimes quite drastically due to conditions. For example, if I cannot safely cross a stream, I may change the route significantly or even come out to a different close-by trailhead.

The permitting system is in flux and each entity is slightly different; it is a bit confusing. Just use common sense and I think you will be OK.

Also, when possible, I try to get out during the pre- or post- quota dates. As long as you start pre-season day 1, there is no quota on the rest of your trip. I did this in Yosemite last year; works well in drought condition years.

[balzaccom]

Good points, Daisy.

About Desolation---those permit zones only apply to the first night. After that, you can usually move on to wherever you would like. But as you note, that's a very busy Wilderness area, and now that I spend quite a bit of time there are a volunteer, I see first-hand how many people are just up for the weekend. The interior areas of Desolation (more than six miles in) are relatively empty. But as you note, there are also lakes that have specific, numbered campsites, where you are not allowed to camp within 500 of the lake unless you are in one of those numbered campsites.

As a volunteer, I often camp "t those lakes" but high on a ridge and at least 500 feet away. i just take an extra water container and dry camp.

[richlong8]

I value the wilderness, and I feel a responsibility to accurately plan my impact upon it. This is no different than the concern I’ve heard you voice many many times about people that don’t cancel permits that they have no intention of using. Whether the issue is logistical/legal (as in permit availability), or environmental (as in the number of person/days inflicted on sensitive ecosystems), I think that modern times call for a more sensitivity in regards to our role in treading lightly and accurately planning our interaction with this precious high country.

It’s not unreasonable to think that some day the NPS (or recreation.gov) may charge by the day for our wilderness permits. Maybe y’all might reconsider this topic then, but I take it seriously now.

I am going to chime in on this one: This past summer, I did the Cloud Canyon-Deadman Canyon loop. I put in for 12 days, with scheduled layover days, but I knew I might easily be coming out after 10 days. It was contingency planning, and I am so glad I planned it that way, which is the way I have always planned my trips. I ended up being out for most of the trip during a hellacious monsoonal weather pattern in the Sierras. I had to deal with wet gear due to storms quickly dumping rain unexpectedly, flooding, difficult fords, etc, etc; I needed every one of those 12 days, even though I planned to probably complete the trip in 10 days. To me, that is how it works practically. You have to leave a margin for error and safety, especially when you are 67 years old. That is my opinion. I began hiking and backpacking when wilderness permits were first introduced, and did not cost anything, and many promises were made how no one would ever be inconvenienced by these permits, which were just supposed to help manage our wilderness areas. That is pretty funny!

[dave54]

...

It’s not unreasonable to think that some day the NPS (or recreation.gov) may charge by the day for our wilderness permits. Maybe y’all might reconsider this topic then, but I take it seriously now.

Several years ago I looked up the USFS Wilderness Management budget and divided it by the number of Wilderness Visitor Days. IIRC it came to a bit over $32 per person per day.
This figure is now several years old and would need updating.
Something to consider when someone complains about 'ranchers not paying their share' or 'loggers getting timber cheap'. How many backpackers are willing to pay $450 for a week long permit for two people? Everyone is getting a subsidy, not only ranchers and loggers.

[richlong8]

...

It’s not unreasonable to think that some day the NPS (or recreation.gov) may charge by the day for our wilderness permits. Maybe y’all might reconsider this topic then, but I take it seriously now.

Several years ago I looked up the USFS Wilderness Management budget and divided it by the number of Wilderness Visitor Days. IIRC it came to a bit over $32 per person per day.
This figure is now several years old and would need updating.
Something to consider when someone complains about 'ranchers not paying their share' or 'loggers getting timber cheap'. How many backpackers are willing to pay $450 for a week long permit for two people? Everyone is getting a subsidy, not only ranchers and loggers.

The day they start charging people daily for use of our land is the day many will abandon the wilderness permit system and sneak in and take their changes. This country is turning into a bunch of sheeple.

[ironmike]

...

It’s not unreasonable to think that some day the NPS (or recreation.gov) may charge by the day for our wilderness permits. Maybe y’all might reconsider this topic then, but I take it seriously now.

Several years ago I looked up the USFS Wilderness Management budget and divided it by the number of Wilderness Visitor Days. IIRC it came to a bit over $32 per person per day.
This figure is now several years old and would need updating.
Something to consider when someone complains about 'ranchers not paying their share' or 'loggers getting timber cheap'. How many backpackers are willing to pay $450 for a week long permit for two people? Everyone is getting a subsidy, not only ranchers and loggers.

The day they start charging people daily for use of our land is the day many will abandon the wilderness permit system and sneak in and take their changes. This country is turning into a bunch of sheeple.

What do you think NPS entrance fees and reservation fees represent? Maybe the fees aren’t always daily, but they might go that direction or at very least increase substantially as overuse continues to worsen.

[Gogd]

..Everyone is getting a subsidy, not only ranchers and loggers.

One does not justify the other. Besides there is a big difference between the ecological and financial impacts of folks seeking recreation on government land assets, versus for profit mining, logging and grazing operations.

Ed