Corona Virus

[franklin411]

But I guess from your point of view if we die 10 years early that lessens demands on the social security, medicare, and hospitals in the long run not to mention opening up housing opportunities for younger folks. Probably for your benefit we should just take a long walk off a short dock since we are an economic drag on the country.

I hope you have a nice long, happy life. This doesn't have any bearing on the statistical fact that coronavirus will only kill 0.1%-0.2% of infected patients.

[franklin411]

Amazing, isn't it? We can't afford to provide health care as a basic human right...but we can somehow find trillions of dollars in only a few weeks to bail out major corporations...

We can't afford anything if no one works. If you want a pound of hamburger, well...someone's gotta raise the cow, someone's gotta truck it to the slaughterhouse, someone's gotta grind it into hamburger, someone's gotta truck it to the supermarket, someone's gotta put it on the shelf and ring you up, you gotta have money to pay for it, you gotta have a way to get it home, you gotta have a way to cook it...

We're not a collection of individuals. We're a society, and nothing gets done unless we all, with few exceptions (children, the elderly, the disabled), work.

And yes, we should have national health care. Frankly, we ought to have government ownership of many industries, including the internet, pharmaceutical production, education, transportation, utilities, etc... I favor socialism over what we've had since 1980, with few exceptions--a mild form of corporate fascism.

[schmalz]

Ha...it takes a full year to manufacture enough doses of flu vaccine from year to year. And the flu vaccine has already been tested and proven safe. A coronavirus vaccine is at least 2 years from widespread deployment. If we even have a coronavirus vaccine at the final stage of development by Dec. 2020, it'll be unprecedented.

People are going to be a lot happier over the long run if they stop hoping some magic bullet (social distancing, a vaccine, a miracle drug) will make it all go away. Coronavirus is here to stay. You'll get it. I'll get it. Neither of us is statistically likely to suffer anything more than minor inconvenience.

Gee thanks I'm 72 and markskor is is 2 years younger and obviously has a compromised immune system during and after chemo. I think Daisy is about 70 as well. I haven't been in a store since the stay at home order has been in place but have been out and about where I can maintain more than 6 ft between myself and the occasional person I meet. My wife(also over 70) has been doing the shopping and is covered head to toe with clothing, gloves and mask when doing so. When she gets home she empties the car spreads out everything that doesn't need refrigeration or freezing then takes off her clothes and puts them in the washing machine before heading to the shower and redressing (unless I catch her first )

But I guess from your point of view if we die 10 years early that lessens demands on the social security, medicare, and hospitals in the long run not to mention opening up housing opportunities for younger folks. Probably for your benefit we should just take a long walk off a short dock since we are an economic drag on the country.

To be fair, the boomer generation did start this generational welfare against the youth. We've been told we're on our own when it comes to things like the crisis in our medical insurance costs, student loans, the housing crisis, global warming... you name it. For what reason? Oh right, the economic drag on the country.

Boomers have been voting in their best interests against those who are younger them pretty consistently. Now, you are asking the youth to make yet another massive sacrifice... You can see how some people are less inclined.

Now, I am not completely heartless but this issue is anything but black and white.

[rlown]

Mike, You need to get out more. I go to the store every other day. No Mask and sometimes in my slippers. People in the masks look scared and that isn't ok. Time to restart normalcy. Let the chips fall where they may.

[SirBC]

But I guess from your point of view if we die 10 years early that lessens demands on the social security, medicare, and hospitals in the long run not to mention opening up housing opportunities for younger folks. Probably for your benefit we should just take a long walk off a short dock since we are an economic drag on the country.

I hope you have a nice long, happy life. This doesn't have any bearing on the statistical fact that coronavirus will only kill 0.1%-0.2% of infected patients.

That is not a fact. We do not know the true mortality rate and we won't know until we finally get widespread testing. Mortality estimates from the CDC are significantly higher than those numbers.

[rlown]

You don't have a mortality rate even with testing. You have a model, but that's it. You have a mortality rate when the last person dies.
There are also problems with the reporting. Underlying conditions play a huge role and just to stamp someone died from Covid is wrong.

[creekfeet]

It would seem here on HST there is a small minority of positive members hopeful that this whole Corona Virus mess won't be the massive health castastrophy as predicted.
Then there are the majority of doom and gloom, bummer junkies.
Oh, but they can go fishing, take their daily 3-5 mile walks, etc.
I guess the govenors statewide shelter-in-place order and "Stay home, Save Lives" doesn't appy to them.
Maybe it's just the deplorable, non-essentials who need to obey?

The governor's order states that Californians may frequent outdoor areas within five miles of their home residence. Given that everyone on this forum is obviously an outdoor enthusiast, I'm assuming that many of us reside in places where we have easy access to trails, and know the trails where we can avoid crowds.

Regarding the "bummer junkies", that's an unfair characterization. Everyone wants to mitigate this virus in the best way possible, but since there's still so much that's unknown about this virus, it's okay to have civil disagreements about what the best way to precede is. I don't know whether or not reopening the economy this soon will ultimately prove to be the right move or not, but our nation doesn't have the best track record when it comes to choosing a short-term economic fix over playing the long-game (The Panic of 1893, unregulated market speculation in the 1920's, deep plowing of native grasses leading to the Dust Bowl, the collapse of the Atlantic cod fishing industry, logging of almost all old growth forests, the bailout of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, etc.)

[balzaccom]

I am really surprised by the anger and polarization in this discussion. Yes, I am 67. But I have two dearly beloved children in their early thirties. And will have grandchildren soon. I have neighbors, friends, and relatives in every possible demographic spectrum of our society. I am not interested in voting against anyone, or in my own best interests at the expense of others. I do think that our current taxation and political systems favor corporations over private citizens, and that includes giving major corporations bail outs and tax incentives while keeping the working poor struggling to make ends meet. There is no other way to explain why we can give billions to airlines and oil companies while offering a measly $1200 to average citizens...which they are expected to make last for months.

The most recent tax reduction vastly reduced taxes for the very wealthy, and did damn little for the rest of us. And now the government says we don't have enough money to help people, only large "employers." Of course, those large employers took the last big bail out and spent it on buying back their stock...so their shareholders got wealthier. Their employees got butkus.

Having said all of that, I am not interested in ignoring the advice of the CDC, the NIH and the WHO on the proper steps to limit the contagion of Covid19.

Instead of protesting that advice, I would suggest that energy would be better spent holding employers accountable for providing legitimate working conditions for their employees, which would include paid medical leave, family leave, and vacation time for all employees, no matter where they are employed. We've had enough of this system that says employers can hire at minimum wage with no benefits...and it will all turn out fine. It clearly isn't turning out fine.

I am interested in what's best for the whole country. And I am interested in listening most closely to those who are most educated on the topic under consideration, whether they be on these boards, or in the public discourse. I hope that's true of everyone here.

[SirBC]

You don't have a mortality rate even with testing. You have a model, but that's it. You have a mortality rate when the last person dies.
There are also problems with the reporting. Underlying conditions play a huge role and just to stamp someone died from Covid is wrong.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that we don't have a mortality rate. All diseases have mortality rates. If you are saying that there is a component of estimation in the mortality rate, that is true. To know the true mortality rate we would need to know the exact number of people infected and we don't. Which was pretty much the point I was making when I said that we don't know the true mortality rate when it was presented as fact that the mortality rate for covid is "0.1%-0.25%". As testing increases our estimate will be more accurate. However, the current estimates from the CDC and others are much greater than 0.1%.

Of course underlying conditions play a large role in outcomes, not just for Covid but for many diseases. Being obese or a smoker puts one at a greater risk of dying from cardiac arrest. If one dies from cardiac arrest, the coroner doesn't list the cause of death as "obesity" or "smoking". If someone with an underlying condition contracts Covid and dies, but would have otherwise lived, then they died from Covid. Dead is dead and I don't think it would go over very well to tell a family member of someone who died from Covid that they didn't really die from Covid, it was actually their asthma/diabetes/age/COPD/etc. I'm not even sure what the point of arguing otherwise is, other than to try and artificially keep the actual number of Covid numbers low.

[rlown]

Well, my dad has COPD.. If he contracts covid, the underlying condition is obvious.. Lungs are compromised.