Let's talk about crowdsourced hiking sites: Alltrails, Hiking Project, Trailforks, ect.

[c9h13no3]

I'm trying to make this a discussion, but I gotta disclose my biases: I kinda hate these websites. For all the usual reasons that have been covered elsewhere on the web: The information is poorly curated, often inaccurate. It is typically full of subjective opinions like "it isn't that hard" or "this is a kid friendly trail". It results in hikers that don't have good navigational abilities. Blah Blah. Those don't particularly interest me, as it is sorta obvious. I don't go to Yelp reviews to hear commentary on Thomas Keller's cuisine either.

What I do think is worth discussing is that when you make reviews/comments about a trail/climb/whatever or otherwise improve their site, you grant them access to do whatever they want with that information. Presumably you submitted that information to help other people enjoy the outdoors as you did. However, the private company that owns those websites could use it to profit how they see fit. Maybe they want to take your information and put it behind a pay wall, or sell it in a guide book. Most of these websites don't put *all* their data behind a paywall, but they often require you to pay to access it offline, via mobile device, or other such barriers that maybe you'd prefer weren't there.

So yeah, if I were to add a rock climbing route to MountainProject, I'm essentially giving OnX Incorporated a small donation and control of that information in order to help other people access something I think more people should be interested in. IDK, it kinda rubs me the wrong way. But I'm malleable, I could be talked into changing my stance.

Is there anything I can do about it? Right now, I contribute to say, places like this. I doubt HST is looking to become a Fortune 500 company anytime soon. I think the advice we give here is way more helpful & personalized. I also think open source websites like OpenStreetMap, which aren't for profit and don't put conditions on accessing data you provide, are a better way to disseminate information about the outdoors.

You can also buy guidebooks. Call me old fashioned, but I think having an expert hike every hike or ski every ski in an area, and then curate that information for me has immense value. Plus they usually have cool pictures, or are just interesting reads in themselves.

So idk, is this interesting? Do you have opinions on this sort of thing? Is there something in the terms & conditions of these places that I've missed? Too many words? Here's a picture.

Matterhorn.jpg

[Wandering Daisy]

I did not know that Alltrails was crowd sourced, but I rarely look at it anyway. I suppose we now will now get Chatbox(? AI programs) entries- regurgitation and mixing of already suspect information.

No route description is really objective since conditions constantly change and each person has their subjective views. Theoretically crowd sourcing is supposed to eventually result in the most accurate information, so says Wikipedia. One problem is knowing where the result is along the timeline of the process- are there only a few entries that the results are based on, or thousands? I take all route information as imperfect and sometimes downright wrong. Boots on the ground yourself is really the only way to find out. But that is the fun part of backpacking- the exploration!

That said, I do enjoy everyone's trip reports.

[c9h13no3]

I did not know that Alltrails was crowd sourced, but I rarely look at it anyway. I suppose we now will now get Chatbox(? AI programs) entries- regurgitation and mixing of already suspect information.

No route description is really objective since conditions constantly change and each person has their subjective views. Theoretically crowd sourcing is supposed to eventually result in the most accurate information, so says Wikipedia. One problem is knowing where the result is along the timeline of the process- are there only a few entries that the results are based on, or thousands? I take all route information as imperfect and sometimes downright wrong. Boots on the ground yourself is really the only way to find out. But that is the fun part of backpacking- the exploration!

That said, I do enjoy everyone's trip reports.

Yeah, I find Alltrails useful. You can find out what's really popular, and people comment on the very popular trail statuses frequently. I've been checking the Eagle Lake trail in Tahoe for reports of mosquitoes.

If you're trying to get away from people, and hike something off the beaten path, I find it more detrimental than useful for the reasons you state: there's no crowd, and thus no source of information.

[Gogd]

TLDR: Free web content comes at a cost; privacy and intellectual property rights are traded for access to content and granting others copyrights over your own creations. The web has transformed us into a society of special interests, often at the expense of a lost sense of community. It has opened up access to myriad information sources; meanwhile creating a void in our ability to stay informed, regarding local civic activities and what passes as facts. Our preference for being entertained, rather than informed, has eroded society's ability to advance its high culture. Sorry, this is all text, no pictures.
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I am more bothered when web site owners mine demographic information and viewing behavior from me, and sell that as part of their business model. I can often tell which web sites are mining my personal stuff, by the spam-mail, popups ads and even news articles appearing when I subsequently visit other web sites.

The web has perturbed what used to pass for journalistic standards and integrity. If you can fog a mirror and select the Submit Button, then you, too, can be a reporter/author/social influencer with little additional gravitas behinds one's CV, other than number of followers. (It helps to be photogenic as well as have an eye for photography.)

One consequence of web viewing behavior occurs when the analysts use viewer activity to drive decisions, regarding what content to prioritize. One only need observe the state of contemporary news media to realize the public preference for negative and grievance content has skewed how and what get reported as news, leading to polarizing society into opposing enemy camps, versus finding common ground and trust. Media outlets are using AI to guide their content presentation and curate their collection according to the individual viewer on the client side of things. Good news you may get content tailored to your specific needs, but the bad news is their intention, here, is for site owners to profit from the interaction, so the curated content may exploit your ignorance, rather than elucidate. The web puppeteer's strings pull us in directions we never considered.

The web has other societal consequences. Back in the day of the printed newspaper, local beat reporters were the public's eyes and ears, regarding local government activities. With the demise of neighborhood news papers, we have lost that monitoring capacity, only becoming aware of unethical and corrupt conduct of elected officials when it gets far out of hand, or revealed in a chance act of discovery. Likewise, the internet has eroded other aspects of our society. This topic thread is timely, in that one of the great inspirations to so many of us outdoor enthusiasts, National Geographic Magazine, will cease publication. NatGeo announced it laid off the entire magazine staff writing team, choosing to concentrate its publication efforts on web and social media content. It has come to this... Can a FB page and Twitter inspire future generations to get out there and explore and develop a reverence for our planet, as the NG mag has instilled in preceding generations? IDK. For me the short form style of web content lacks the soul and intellectual engagement of the long form content that has been the trademark of National Geographic Magazine for over a century. In my youth the magazine's lengthy article of the first American team to summit Mt Everest bedazzled me with the sense of adventure. It was a inflection point in my life that lead me to backpacking and mountaineering. Much as I enjoy reading TRs in SummitPost.org and content found on AmericanAlpineClub.org, most of the content is a Cliff Notes version of what National Geographic typically published. Furthermore the internet has changed society's reading habits. We seem to lack the interest/attention span to read long form informative content, so even the guidebook market is on the wane. I pause to consider the web does not sufficiently raise the level of passion and inspiration that quality hard copy publications used to affect, to inspire people to become explorers, be it to the top of a mountain, outer space, or even motivated enough to attempt discovering a nice, remote patch of lakeside shade somewhere deep in the wilderness.

Ed
Edited for clarity.

[dave54]

I find them useful to get an idea about the area and some of the trails. They seldom have all the trails, and I really do not need 16 different GPS tracks with no two the same. I can read a map, and do not need a GPX file at all.
The trail writeups are far more useful than the GPX files. I take them with a grain of salt. One person's death march from hell is another's easy stroll. However, by reading several of the writeups you can start finding the commonalities and derive some useful insights.

If I see a trail on a map and no corresponding trail report, I note that as a possible route to avoid people.

[Wandering Daisy]

Years ago, I noticed a "trail" on Google Maps. It was a GPS track of a CDT hiker who basically had no idea of what he was getting into. It descended Pixley Creek in the Wind Rivers. Evidently, he had uploaded all his GPS tracks to somewhere accessible by Google Earth. Being a CDT hiker all his uploads must have been assumed to be trails. I knew there was no trail.

A few summers later a friend and I went down Pixley Creek to check it out as a possible off-trail route for my guidebook. After leaving Baker Lake and a challenging day, we were camped at a small tarn at the point where the creek disappears shortly into talus at the lower end of the hanging valley, before the drainage steeply plunges 2000 feet to the Green River.

About 4PM, here comes two dead tired beat up young fellows, fishing rods in hand. We were as surprised as they were! They had bushwhacked up this hideous slope following the GPS track which did not even take the easiest route. They had loaded the Google Map on their I-phone and said they were just following the "trail" and assumed they were at fault for missing a critical turn in the "trail". They did not even have a 7.5 minute USGS map. They were headed up to Baker Lake, because they assumed such a big lake MUST have big fish (it does not) and were thrilled to see that Google Maps said there was a trail. They basically were doing the reverse of our route. We said they were welcome to stay at our campsite but they had their hearts set on camping at Baker Lake so off the went. We subsequently did another trip, and on that return noticed that their car was gone from the parking lot, so they must have made it back OK. In this case everything turned out fine, but it could have ended poorly.

Later I noticed that Google took the "Pixley Creek Trail" off their map. Trip report below.

https://www.highsierratopix.com/communi ... eek#p89032

[windknot]

Yikes -- I suppose there's no solution for ineptitude. I thought everyone used published topographic maps as primary references for determining if there are trails in specific areas?

[Wandering Daisy]

I find that the younger generations rely more in GPS and/or internet sources than USGS maps. Crowdsourced "information" seems to be their preference. Reading a map and old-fashioned navigation are becoming lost arts.

USGS maps are not necessarily accurate for trails either (the date on the map is important!). Some old trails that are no longer maintained are still on older USGS maps. As a supplement I like the latest Forest Service maps (again- look at the printing date). These are particularly useful for roads to some remote trailheads.

GPS accuracy is also subject to what maps it use (or you load into it). That said, GPS is a useful tool as long as you do more than just blindly walk "dot-to-dot".

[SirBC]

I suppose we now will now get Chatbox(? AI programs) entries- regurgitation and mixing of already suspect information.

Just for fun I asked ChatGPT to plan a route for me.

Me:
Plan me a backpacking route in the Sierra from North Lake to South Lake over 7 days. Include at least 3 day hikes along the way that involves off trail hiking with scenic views but does not involve hikes with exposure. Include information where there are good photography locations.

ChatGPT:
Certainly! Here's a backpacking route from North Lake to South Lake in the Sierra Nevada over a span of 7 days, incorporating 3 day hikes with off-trail sections and scenic views. I'll also mention some potential photography locations along the way. Please note that the difficulty of off-trail hiking can vary based on conditions and personal experience, so exercise caution and make adjustments as needed.

Day 1: North Lake to Piute Lake

Start at North Lake trailhead and hike to Piute Lake.
Distance: Approximately 5 miles.
Photography: Piute Lake offers beautiful reflections of surrounding peaks in the morning light.

Day 2: Piute Lake to Humphreys Basin

Leave Piute Lake and head south towards Humphreys Basin.
Distance: Approximately 9 miles.
Photography: As you ascend towards Humphreys Basin, there are stunning panoramic views of the surrounding peaks, including Mount Humphreys.

Day 3: Day hike to Desolation Lake

Take a day hike from Humphreys Basin to Desolation Lake.
Distance (round trip): Approximately 6 miles.
Off-trail section: The hike involves off-trail navigation from Humphreys Basin to Desolation Lake.
Photography: Desolation Lake provides excellent opportunities for capturing reflections of the surrounding peaks and alpine scenery.

Day 4: Humphreys Basin to LeConte Canyon

Depart Humphreys Basin and hike towards LeConte Canyon.
Distance: Approximately 10 miles.
Photography: Along the way, you'll pass beautiful meadows and potentially encounter wildlife, providing opportunities for nature photography.

Day 5: Day hike to Dusy Basin

Take a day hike from LeConte Canyon to Dusy Basin.
Distance (round trip): Approximately 8 miles.
Off-trail section: The hike involves off-trail travel from LeConte Canyon to Dusy Basin.
Photography: Dusy Basin is renowned for its stunning alpine scenery, including picturesque lakes and rugged granite peaks.

Day 6: LeConte Canyon to Bishop Pass

Continue from LeConte Canyon and hike to Bishop Pass.
Distance: Approximately 9 miles.
Photography: Bishop Pass offers breathtaking views of the surrounding peaks, valleys, and glacial lakes. It's an excellent spot for landscape photography.

Day 7: Bishop Pass to South Lake

Descend from Bishop Pass to South Lake, ending the backpacking trip.
Distance: Approximately 7 miles.
Photography: The descent from Bishop Pass provides spectacular views of the glaciated peaks and alpine lakes.

Please note that off-trail hiking requires navigation skills, proper equipment, and familiarity with the area. Make sure to check trail conditions, obtain necessary permits, and consult local resources or park rangers for the most up-to-date information before embarking on your journey.

Me:
Let me know if there are any areas that may be dangerous or requires particular care when hiking or if any fatalities occurred on the route you recommend.

ChatGPT:
I apologize for any confusion caused by my previous response. As an AI language model, I don't have access to real-time information on accidents, fatalities, or specific details regarding off-trail hiking conditions in the Sierra Nevada. It is essential to gather the most up-to-date information from official sources, such as local park websites, trail reports, or consulting with experienced hikers or rangers who are knowledgeable about the current conditions and safety concerns in the area.

Additionally, planning a backpacking route with off-trail sections requires detailed knowledge of the terrain, navigation skills, and proper equipment. It is crucial to have experience in backcountry travel and be prepared for potential risks and challenges that may arise. I strongly recommend consulting with local experts or professional guides who can provide accurate and specific advice based on the current conditions and your level of experience.

When venturing into the wilderness, always prioritize safety, leave a detailed trip plan with someone you trust, check weather forecasts, carry necessary safety equipment, and follow proper wilderness etiquette.

Yikes -- I suppose there's no solution for ineptitude. I thought everyone used published topographic maps as primary references for determining if there are trails in specific areas?

I'm sure we have all seen news stories of someone in their car following GPS prompts right into a lake. I bet this mindset carries over to trail GPS tracks. And now, this will likely happen with AI recommendations. The unfortunate reality is that we are likely not far away from reading about someone who has lost their life in the backcountry following an itinerary that AI recommended.

[c9h13no3]

Day 4: Humphreys Basin to LeConte Canyon

Depart Humphreys Basin and hike towards LeConte Canyon.
Distance: Approximately 10 miles.

To be fair, depending on your definition of approximately, this is approximately correct.