Inyo Wilderness Permit Gripe

[alpinemike]

We've had quite a few topics regarding the Wilderness Permit changes the last couple years. I remember in the beginning how it was such a pain in the a** with having to call in to even reserve a walk up permit. Nonetheless we've made it through that time and now we have a new system where most all places are now using the Recreation.gov site to allow you to not only reserve your 6 month in advance permit, but also the so-called Walk up Permits where they are available to reserve 2 weeks out.

A lot of the topics regarding these changes have put the question of reserved but unused permits front and center. This got me thinking, especially this year, because of the most recent change, of how this problem might really be an issue. And I'm specifically talking about the Inyo at this point. This year, if I'm not mistaken is the first year you don't have to physically email back to the wilderness offices stating that you've seen the LNT principles and all that, and instead you can just print your permit as early as 1 week before your trip.

So... I print my permit one week before my trip, something happens to where I'm not able to get out on my trip. Injury, sickness, work, and the big one... weather being some of the usual culprits. Naturally the permit doesn't go back into the pool if I don't physically cancel the permit. I personally find this very frustration and not very fair to those that are anxiously waiting for that one time they can get out, but can't score a permit. I can imagine this might be happening due to the fact that most of us if something is going on aren't going to worry about canceling our permit and will likely be dealing with the situation that is causing us not to go on our trip in the first place. Certainly... I would hope that those that get a permit but can't go will cancel to allow others that are waiting for that one spot to be able to go, but... we all know that's not always going to be the case.

In the old system you had to physically pick up your permit close.. ie the day before your trip starts! So, if something unforeseen happens well naturally between that point and when you head out on your trip there's nothing that can be done, but those scenarios just logically speaking are less likely than an entire week out.

I'm mostly just inviting thoughts on this issue from our community here. Let's keep it civil please and maybe, just maybe if we're lucky we can work together and figure out a solution that mitigates this problem at least to some extent.

[John Harper]

So... I print my permit one week before my trip, something happens and naturally the permit doesn't go back into the pool.

I'm not understanding what this means. Did you print out your permit, or try to cancel it? What do you mean by "something happens?" Are you sure it wasn't pilot error? I'm not clear on exactly what "problem" you are trying to solve?

I've got a walk up reservation for June 6 (Cottonwood Lakes) and plan to print my permit next week before my trip. I have noticed some slots opened up for a few trailheads, I presume those are cancellations being reposted to be available. So far, I've had no issues with the reservation system over the past two years. The first year was frustrating with having to phone in multiple times, but last year and this year seem like a simple process.

John

[alpinemike]

So... I print my permit one week before my trip, something happens and naturally the permit doesn't go back into the pool.

I'm not understanding what this means. Did you print out your permit, or try to cancel it? What do you mean by "something happens?" Are you sure it wasn't pilot error? I'm not clear on exactly what "problem" you are trying to solve?
John

I've updated my original post to explain that by "something happens" I mean I'm not able to go on my trip and therefore end up not using the permit. The problem is that once I print the permit it is no longer available for anyone to use. Since I physically didn't go to pickup my permit in the eyes of the quota my permit is taking up a spot, but I'm not actually using it. Before this system people could get to a permit office and wait for people to not show up for their permits for which I know has happened many times over the years.

Hopefully that explains what I'm trying to mitigate.

[Bishop_Bob]

You have described the main problem I see with the current system. I would think a more substantial financial incentive (penalty) would solve much of the problem. For example, picking up (or printing out) the permit would result in the return of $50 charged extra to one's credit card at the time of permit purchase on recreation.gov (i.e., when the reservation is made). I'd be more attentive to canceling a permit in time if I got $50 back, as opposed to the present situation where no money is returned if a permit isn't canceled (and the amount lost by not going is only $5).

[alpinemike]

It's always been one thing to reserve a permit online in advance... be it even 14 days in advance for the so called walk up permits... but in other places you still have to physically pick up your permit. In this instance you don't! And like you said... there's no penalty. One thing that I worry about with the financial incentive is that people would still print out their permit, but still not use it. The ability to enforce the use of the permit and the printing of it is the real issue I see here.

There's a disconnect between the reserving of the permit and the picking up of one to ensure the "no shows" go back into the pool.

[Wandering Daisy]

One way to compensate is to set the quota with the assumption that a certain percentage will not show up. Perhaps they already do this. I am sure they have records that could determine the number. Or simply try a percentage, say 20%, then check the parking lots to see how full they are.

But I agree that picking up the permit at one of the offices is the best. There are enough offices up and down 395 that nearly everyone passes one on their way to the trailhead. They could ditch "the talk" and you could still print out your permit but be required to "sign in".

Of course, all this is useless if they do not write permits for same-day or next-day actual walk-ins. I suspect they really do not want to deal with true "walk-in" permits.

[Sierrasnob]

You have described the main problem I see with the current system. I would think a more substantial financial incentive (penalty) would solve much of the problem. For example, picking up (or printing out) the permit would result in the return of $50 charged extra to one's credit card at the time of permit purchase on recreation.gov (i.e., when the reservation is made). I'd be more attentive to canceling a permit in time if I got $50 back, as opposed to the present situation where no money is returned if a permit isn't canceled (and the amount lost by not going is only $5).

I totally agree. I see this especially in places like yosemite valley campgrounds...sites just sitting empty that I know hundreds of others would have killed to reserve. The financial penalties need to be huge, for backcountry there needs to be maybe an online 'check-in' say 24hrs before your date, that way if you don't check in to say 'yes I'm for sure going' you'll get dinged something like the $50 you mentioned.

I can't imagine the forest service cares all that much though. They get their money and if people don't show that's less usage/wear and tear on the trails and camps and less folks they potentially have to manage. although they now know nothing about the actual utilization of the backcountry

[alpinemike]

I totally agree. I see this especially in places like yosemite valley campgrounds...sites just sitting empty that I know hundreds of others would have killed to reserve. The financial penalties need to be huge, for backcountry there needs to be maybe an online 'check-in' say 24hrs before your date, that way if you don't check in to say 'yes I'm for sure going' you'll get dinged something like the $50 you mentioned.

This... I could see working. You're checking in just as you would be if you had to actually pick up your permit. I would bet a hell of a lot more people would physically click that button to make sure they aren't charged $50. Bet if you made it $100 you'd barely have this issue at all. More importantly if you mandated that it had to be done between the day of or the day before the trip there wouldn't be anyone just getting away a week before all casually and then still not showing up to use their permit.

In my opinion if they're going to make it harder to get walk up permits, then people shouldn't have the ability to abuse the system and just casually get away with it. Because not returning a permit in my opinion is abusing the system. In a perfect world, their current system would work out great, but we all know that not everyone cancels their permit. And especially with more people using more popular areas if they actually want to keep things fair (which of course is questionable to begin with) then there should be a consequence to not being fair to others by not giving up the permit.

[wildhiker]

Increasing the chronically under-funded forest service budget - specifically the portion reserved for recreation - could help. I suspect that they dropped the requirement to check in with an office or visitor center to actually pick up the permit because they don't have the budget to staff those offices with enough people to handle all the visitors.
-Phil

[JayOtheMountains]

Recreation.gov is ran by the defense contractor Booze-Allen.

There is no requirement in their contract(s) to create a system to both track unused permits, nor to create a system to account for and issue unused permits under the current system. It's entirely user-driven to cancel the permits.

The system in its current form is broken. I won't deny it works at the 90% effectiveness level, but considering how messed up the entire reservation system is, it's not surprising that we are at this point. The USDA/BLM/NPS no longer has positive control of the permitting process. Its been outsourced to the lowest bidder, who is making loads of profit. The current model and contract type incentivizes profits for the company.

What does that mean for us? Well, permits are still messed up and we're probably not going to see in-person permit issuance for a bit, if ever.

It's pretty messed up.