Short east side trip info for 4/9

[Wandering Daisy]

Rock Creek Lake is about mile and half before the end of the road and Mosquito Flat TH. The 0.4" snow data is from a CDEC snow gage. That just makes the trailhead probably accessible without snow, as long as the road is open. From that point into the wilderness would be some snow. I gather "Love the Sierra" was looking for access and is aware that there will be snow- just did not want steep technical snow, and willing to take snowshoes. I think Harlen did a ski trip to Ruby Lake this winter- may want to look at that. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22134

The CDEC daily snow depth data is preliminary. By the way, the Mammoth Lakes webcam was stuck on a mid-March date for a long time. I see that it is working today.

This time of year you have to just go out there to see what conditions are really like. I suspect that slopes facing the sun, out in the open, will be dry, forested areas snowy as well as areas in deep canyons. Good bet that there is less snow the farther south you go on the east side.

Bishop Pass CDEC snow gage was about 40 inches. If I recall, you pass the snow gage which can be seen near the trail. If anyone wants to they can look up the exact location of gages on the CDEC site.

[Love the Sierra]

Hi all,
Thank you so much for taking the time to reply.

@SSSdave , I have taken snow wilderness camping courses and done three short spring snow trips so I know what to expect. I have been caught in snow storms. This is why I want low mileage and a place to base camp and then day hike to and from there. That way, I will have an easy and quick way out if needed. I hike locally with crampons and snow shoes and, in a 10 mile day hike, I will sometimes use both snow shoes and crampons depending upon time of day and aspect. Our snow is icy and rotten since I am hiking the Angeles Forest. (I could forgo the snow shoes, but I hate postholing!)

@Wandering Daisy yes, I have looked at the maps, but I cannot always tell the aspect or the footing from the map and that is why I ask you experienced folks. Thank you so much for your excellent answers. You are always so helpful. No, there is no way I could get to TO Lake and I do not think that I want to walk 4 miles on the road. I cannot backpack in the National parks since I go with my dog. One last quick question, please...Where did you get those exact snow depths that you list at the end of your post? Iwould think that it is hard to glean just from the forest service map.

@michaelzim we are of the same mind. The info on the internet is contradictory, that is why I ask the group. Also, I am trying to get out as soon as I can before the heat and fires. The two big ones I am planning are Bear Creek to Vee Lake and Pine Creek to Miriam lake and perhaps Royce Lakes. I miss late summer hiking with long trips, light gear, few mosquitos and mild, (NOT HOT) temps.

I have been to Big Pine Creek and Little Lakes Valley and Hilton Lakes many times and was hoping for something new. I have skied Virginia Lakes. Never been to Onion Valley at all.
Thanks again.

[michaelzim]

Well the ever helpful folks at the Bishop ranger station gave me some insight into the "snow depth conundrum"...

Last year one of the rangers got suspicious about the accuracy of the LIDAR readings of snow depth like that given in the USDA Current Snow Depth map https://www.fs.fed.us/r5/webmaps/Sierra ... on=-116.85
Just like my prior reference to Bishop Pass showing a large variation between the USDA map and CDEC data, she went out there and checked what was actually happening. In one instance the LIDAR said Bishop Pass had less than 12 inches of snow, but in reality it had 72 inches! Yes, a huge difference.
After further review she established that the LIDAR was almost useless for any steep slopes and the jagged higher terrain, though did a good job in the flatland lower valley zones.
This seems to match my puzzlement with the variations of the two systems I have been finding online.

To conclude, Daisy's always helpful advice seems to be most relevant: "This time of year you have to just go out there to see what conditions are really like. I suspect that slopes facing the sun, out in the open, will be dry, forested areas snowy as well as areas in deep canyons. Good bet that there is less snow the farther south you go on the east side."

LTS you sound like you have a lot more snow experience than me so I would appreciate you letting us know when you go and where you decide to go for your early tip - and a TR of course afterwards. I am going to just keep watching the weather and thaw rate and decide accordingly. Also the pertinent aspect of which access roads are open, as I too get no thrills at the prospect of a long haul down a closed blacktop road to get in and out.

Best ~ Michaelzim

[Wandering Daisy]

I did my master's thesis on remote sensing used to characterize watersheds for rainfall-runoff modeling. That was 20 years ago and the remote sensing today is more sophisticated. But I think the basic concepts apply. Even when "ground truthed" remotely sensed digital data gets up to about 75-80% accurate at best. We also were working in a mountainous watershed. The maps produced from remote sensing are not as useful for small areas or points of interest. They do a good job of estimating an entire watershed's condition, be it snowpack, vegetation, etc. This is very useful for water resource managers, less so for backpackers. Some maps produced by remote sensing that you may find on the internet may not be "ground-truthed", meaning not tied to a dense grid of gaged data. Digital remote sensed maps are useful, but not intended for exact locations. The areas of no snow along the crest just mean no snow on the rock faces are more dominant than the lower angle slopes that hold snow. There still will be plenty of snow on the nearby trails.

My snow depth numbers are based on CDEC snow-depth data from gages. Again, any one gage reading can be skewed. When it storms, snow may fall at an angle and build drifts near the gage. If you look at several days pre-storm and post-storm you get a better idea. DWR -CDEC gages are purposely placed to measure various conditions, one may be in an open meadow, another on a south facing slope, another facing north; various elevations are covered. You can look up the location of each gage and find out the micro-conditions where it is located. With computer modeling they can put all that together and get a picture of the resulting water released from snow melt. Remember they are focused on water content of snow, not depth. So when they say 50% normal on their graphs, they mean 50% of normal water content, not depth.

CDEC (California Data Exchange) web site is made for water resource professionals. It is not the most user-friendly for the average person, but how the data is gathered is well documented. I also like their river flow data and real-time precipitation data. They also do a lot of peak flow forecasts that include snow-melt contributions to streams, as part of flood control.

[c9h13no3]

Yeah, the best tool for estimating snow coverage is satellite imagery and reports from the various avalanche centers.

[grampy]

… The two big ones I am planning are Bear Creek to Vee Lake and Pine Creek to Miriam lake and perhaps Royce Lakes …

Coincidentally, these are the two definite trips I have planned for this summer (along with a couple of “maybe” plans). I’ll keep my eye out in case you do a trip report on either one; it would be interesting to see your perspective.

[Love the Sierra]

Many thanks to all of you!
After calls to the Sierra high country, Lone Pine and Mammoth ranger stations (quite a trick to get someone on the phone.) and spending every night this week until very late, studying maps and road conditions, snow sensor maps, and various FB reports, I have come to the conclusion that I will do what @Wandering Daisy suggests. I will go with every map I own, my skis, my snow shoes and pack and check things out. The problem, of course, will be permits.
I think that I will get a permit for Big Pine. I know that trail very well. It has some narrow granite switchbacks near the falls. If that seems too dangerous or any other part of the trail seems impassible, I will go back and try Rock Creek to Little Lakes Valley or turn this adventure into a car camp. I’ll have my skis and I can ski Virginia Lakes and day hike or ski around Mammoth and McGee Creek and Rock Creek, etc.Also WD, Yes, I want a snow trip but not technical.
BTW the rangers told me that every road south of Lundy Lake, except Glacier Lodge, is closed. On the west side, Sierra NF, high country station, he said there is impassible and even skiable snow at 7500 feet.
Thank you all so much for your input!
I am desperate to get out before the fires. It will not be much of a vacation because of all the driving, but it will be good to scout everything for my end of April trip. Now to get some good books on tape...

[Wandering Daisy]

Well, did you go? How was it?

[Love the Sierra]

I ended up at Little Lakes Valery over the weekend.
Climbed up the Rock Creek trail and about 50/50 dry to snowy trail after 9500’. I was glad to have snow shoes and post holed a couple of times even with the snow shoes. I was losing daylight so I cut over to the road at upper Pine Creek campground. At 10,000’, the road was 50/50 dry to snow. LOTS of black ice!

We made camp at Mosquito flat. Mostly snow but found a dry spot to pitch the tent.
Did a short walk up into Little Lakes Valley. After the wilderness boundary wonderful snow, perfect for skiing. I was sad that I had snowshoes and not skis, but my pack was too heavy as is and there was no way to ski the road or Rock Creek trail. Met another backpacker who camped at Mack Lake.
He did not have snow shoes and said that the post holing was so awful, he could not go any farther than Mack. He had intended to go to Chickenfeet.
Anyone strong enough to hike the 5.25 miles, approx 2000’ gain to the wilderness boundary with skis will be greatly rewarded!
I packed out ahead of the storm and camped at Palisades campground. The wind was gusting over 45 mph in the morning when I packed camp at 6:00am. Snow was already falling at higher altitudes and blowing into the camp. It was so pretty to see the individual flakes that held their shape and didn’t melt!
I had originally intended to day hike and camp at lower altitude and ski on Tuesday. However, when I got cell coverage, my husband told me that one of my dogs was sick so I raced home.
Thanks for all of the good info ahead of this trip.

[texan]

Thanks for sharing. There's not much snow up there at all for mid-April. I hope we get a lot of rain this summer.

Texan