Feedback request on Rec.Gov for SIERRA N.F. only

[michaelzim]

This thread is only for feedback and suggestions on/for the Rec.Gov permits process with regards to SIERRA National Forest...Not Inyo. Not other Wilderness areas. Not the National Parks, etc.
The reason for this, which many will know, is that they all have their differences - many of which have been voiced in other posts on HST. Unlike Inyo for example, Sierra NF permits have required us to go and pick them up in person at the ranger station v. doing it all online. 2021 was the first year for Sierra using Rec.Gov so any input will be limited to just this past summer's backpacking season.

The reason I am posting is because I promised the Supervisor at Prather ranger station in spring that I would do so. We had numerous phone and email discussions about the change-over to the new system and I also met her in person mid-summer. In short, if anything can be improved, she is committed to trying to implement that within the process.
As we have guessed, that will be with the online initial format of Rec.Gov as that is not going away. However, she is adamant that Sierra maintains some real human interaction with the process hence the need to pick up permits in person - which I am all in favour of, especially as the option to have "waiting permits in the box" after hours also still exists if do a phone-call for rules and regs. beforehand.

I used the Prather ranger station three times this past summer and had no problems getting permits online or with the pickup process - including after hours. The fears of having no permits like happens over the divide at Inyo did not really materialize, even with Covid still with us. Once the 40% release of permits occurred 2 weeks before the permit dates there always seemed to be some available right up to the last minute, even with popular trailheads. Maybe a specific day was full, but with a little flexibility I saw few "fully booked" blocks whenever I looked. In short, it was "OK".

So, suggestions and feedback.
Yes, I know there are a couple of other threads already dealing with the Rec.Gov system and have contributed much to them myself. However, my hope here is to get a distillation of anything unresolved or that could be improved...again, just for Sierra N.F.
Those other threads are chock full of commentary on things that do not pertain to Sierra, or ultimately never came to pass. I'm hoping to get succinct summaries of what is still bugging anyone about the system and which realistically might be changed, improved, altered, whatever. I will then pass those on to the Prather supervisor. From my experience I think I can guarantee that suggestions will be listened to and changed if possible.

Thanks in advance! ~ Michaelzim

[mort]

Hello Michaelzim,
I have only used the Prather R.S. once, and it was last month. In the past, I have hiked out of Courtright and Wishon, but either before wilderness permits existed or got my permit a Dinkey Creek.
I had a permit reservation through recreation.gov starting Oct. 12 I called the Prather Ranger on Oct 1 and arranged to pick up my permit from the overnight box on Oct. 11, a federal holiday. I drove from L.A. - about 250 miles and found that my permit was not in the box. There were 8 other permits. So I met my brother at the Maxson trailhead and we hiked out the next day,
For me that part of the system, which apparently was thought to be working OK, failed.
-mort

[michaelzim]

@mort Thanks for the feedback and I will bring it up when speak with the Supe. However, I suspect this was one that just fell through the cracks rather than an endemic issue. Maybe the holiday geeked it?
The times I was at Prather it sure was busy and the staff were bouncing in and out of the door doing the permit shuffle at quite a pace.

I did pick up after hour permits on the way in twice, though arrived late when they were open the second time. On both occasions my permits were in the box and I was good to go.

*** If anyone else has comments please post them as will be talking with the Prather supe middle of this coming week ***

Best ~ Michaelzim

[Harlen]

Hi Michael, Thanks for your ongoing efforts on the WP system issue. One point I would make is re. the inability to designate where one is actually going to be during the trip. With Rec.gov, one has to choose from the very limited number of designated areas within the National Forest, rather than marking down your planned backcountry camps, and the passes to be crossed, etc... This becomes a safety issue for anyone who gets injured, or stuck, and needs of assistance. Of course, a detailed itinerary of your own alleviates this problem, but it would be nice to be accurate as to where one will be.
I wonder if there is any hope that the wonderful old rules will ever return. I.e., just showing up at opening time on the day you want to go in, to
access the ~40% walk-in quota. Sure liked that method. Oh well .

[agfhst]

Thanks, michaelzim.

I agree with Harlen's comment. There are lots of places that aren't on the drop-down list of possible campsites, even somewhat obvious ones on trails. You can choose "Unknown (Sierra NF)" as an option, but that's not useful.

I have another Sierra NF question, which may or may not be related to Harlen's point and doesn't directly relate to the reservations.gov system. When picking up permits, the Prather office has been telling people that they can't hike off trail. I know this has happened at least twice, toward the end of the season this year.

This is not a written condition on the permits and doesn't even make sense -- we're required to camp at least 100 feet from trails.

I'm not sure where this comes from. It could have been a temporary restriction to make it easier to find people if necessary in the event of a fire when the fire risk was high. Or it could be that this happens when a non-ranger, non-hiker is giving the permit instructions and misinterprets the standard direction to not cut switchbacks and to stay on the existing tread when you are following a trail. If you had a chance to ask about this, it would be interesting to know the answer -- unless someone on HST already knows.

[Wandering Daisy]

I had a good experience picking up my permit this summer. I agree that permits need to be picked up for the purpose of "in-person contact", so why cannot the permits not picked up be available for first-come walk-in? I have no problem paying the same fee for a walk-up, but I sure wish they would be available.

Harlen, I do not think the permits have ever been viewed as a document for search and rescue nor does the FS want to get into the business (liability) for search and rescue. You should instead leave a detailed trip plan with a family member.

[michaelzim]

Thanks for the feedback so far, please keep it coming!

@Harlen …Yes, the lack of detail in the designated itinerary locations is kind of a joke if it ever came to trying to find someone out there. I sure used “Unknown” a lot as an alternative to just pulling some generalization off their locations list.
This limitation of course cuts two ways, as I find I hardly ever am where I expected to be on any set day (I’m slower than my at home imagination!) and over half the time I change my route completely once I’m in the back-country…so I am not a good poster-child for this issue. However, I will bring it up for sure.

Harlen and @Wandering Daisy …With regard to the nostalgic “true walk in” of just showing up and seeing if any permits are available, I suspect that is history. A cull of convenience to the internet that is going to be hard to throw off.
I have had one thought though that may make it a bit closer to reality, and that is a “Frequent Hiker” program. Others have mentioned this too, as we have all our info down already in Rec.Gov so there is no reason a category of “status” could not be added. Once we have seen the required video, or been checked through the permit system (and actually gone on trips c/o picked up permits) “X” amount of times, then I see no reason why an “approved / expedited” status could not be designated to that account / person. The subsequent processing at the ranger station could then be just a few clicks and good to go, whether this is done well beforehand (like now) or while you wait in the parking lot with a smartphone inputting a permit request. Of course one has to have a smartphone – which I do not.
Something like this could work for a lot of people though and still keep the bulk of the ‘paperwork’ side being filled in by us and thus less burdensome on NF staff.
Trying for a true walk in should be a continual mantra and is indeed on my supe request list.

@agfhst …I have no idea what that “Don’t hike off trail” is all about and it makes no sense at all to a good number of us at HST for sure! It may have had some origins in fire and safety issues if indeed it was intended???
I will ask and post anything that I find out about it.

Thanks much ~ Michaelzim

[maverick]

One point I would make is re. the inability to designate where one is actually going to be during the trip. With Rec.gov, one has to choose from the very limited number of designated areas within the National Forest, rather than marking down your planned backcountry camps, and the passes to be crossed, etc... This becomes a safety issue for anyone who gets injured, or stuck, and needs of assistance. Of course, a detailed itinerary of your own alleviates this problem, but it would be nice to be accurate as to where one will be.

Harlen,

The Reconn Form (https://reconn.org/) addresses this concern, Harlen.
I've been working on getting it onto the Rec.gov sites for years, but things move very slowly because of the governmental bureaucracy. SEKI added it earlier this year (viewtopic.php?f=9&t=21292&p=162707&hili ... rm#p162707); I've been working on getting the NFS to add it as well for the past several months; I've made headway, but the wildfires halted progress. I called my NF contact yesterday to see about restarting it and hopefully getting it on all the NFS Rec.gov sites by the end of this year.

[Harlen]

Maverick,

A worthy goal. I plan to print out a ton of these, and keep using them, and provide them to friends. Perhaps is USFS knew how many folks were already using the Reconn Form, it might help convince them to make it generally available. Thank you for your work creating this valuable form.

[michaelzim]

Well I have a bit more to add to this post as had a long chat with Debbie McD. the Prather supervisor this last week.

First up, the “don’t hike off trail” thing was a ‘nothing’ as we suspected. It was likely some over keen explanation of not cutting switchbacks, etc. and Debbie is going to remind her newer rangers that not everyone sticks to trails. That “off trail” hikers exist and do exactly that.

Next, also as we expected, Rec.Gov is here to stay…
The Parks and Sierra N.F. are the most opposed to doing purely online permits. Not sure how long that will last, but hopefully for many years to come.
Humbolt-Toiyabe is out there as the most adamant “all online” force, with little concern for the consequences on hikers! Ummmmm…don’t quote me / her on that.
Inyo is going to full online plus print your own permit in 2022. I thought they were already doing that but apparently it was not consistent this year. For instance, the Mammoth station became renowned for being a total pain in the rear. I could not quite glean what that was all about, but in short they were making permits much more of a hassle to get than they should have been. So in 2022 there should be a more similar approach from all Inyo stations.

As for true, old style, show up and get a permit walk-ins…Yep, sort of history.
I say sort of, as it still seems to be possible in some cases – like me showing up at Roads End in early September and getting a permit for Bubbs Creek right then, for that day, at 10:30 am in the morning.
Sierra N.F. was also incredibly accommodating though having the minimal online stuff done on Rec.gov helped a lot. They are aware that not every human on the planet has (or wants) a Smartphone, so doing ones permit online in the parking lot is not possible for 100% of the public. However, things are still too new to determine where that permutation will go.

They are aware that the current itinerary setup has potential for a lot of improvement, especially if rangers are manually going through stacks of permits trying to figure out who is where in a new fire zone. I brought up the ReConn.org trip itinerary idea and she was pleased to hear about it and may indeed try and fit it into the permit process.

A last tidbit and for those that may have bumped into that young, ultra on top of it, super-efficient gal Delaney at Prather. She is 3rd generation forest service, an exemplary ranger, and knows N.F.S. stuff every which way. Unfortunately she is no longer going to be front desk at Prather making sure our permits are going through as well as possible. Fortunately she is staying with Sierra and is transferring to in-field Wilderness rangering…where she will no doubt also excel.

Best ~ Michaelzim