WR 2022- Trip 3 West side loop from Elkhart TH

[Viper]

WD, I’m surprised you haven’t mentioned your book as a factor in the increased crowds. Perhaps not for your 2022 trips, which as you say were mostly on popular trails, but your book has certainly had an impact elsewhere in the range.

On our trip this year in the Winds (mid-late August), I was surprised by how many parties said they were coming from or heading to the same off-trail lake, which they had learned about in Beyond Trails. An internet search for that lake also yields multiple trip reports citing the book.

So while the major trails and well-known thru routes are crowded for other reasons (including the very active FB page devoted to the Winds), the increased visitation to the off-trail portions of the Winds can be attributed at least in part to Beyond Trails. Maybe that goes without saying—the purpose of the book is to give detailed info on how to get to places that people may not have previously considered. And while the crowds may not be high in such places, that is a relative term. Seeing two or three tents at a remote lake where there used to be none (with the increased fishing pressure to boot) can be just as impactful if not more so than seeing a stream of 25 backpackers at Island Lake.

This is not meant as a criticism of the book, which I own. It is probably the most useful hiking book I’ve seen, with an incredible amount of detail and an amazing CD of maps and photos. But this issue was definitely on my mind in the Winds this year. With guidebooks, particularly as amplified by internet trip reports that cite them, you will get increased crowds in the places we love.

[Wandering Daisy]

Several Wind River guidebooks have been out there since the 1950's. The Bonny guides covered off-trail destinations as did the small Finis Mitchell guide. Kelsey has put out several editions of his climbing guidebook. Then came the trail guides from the big publishers. The National Outdoor Leadership School began in 1968. Some of those students came back with their families to the remote locations they visited on their courses. My guide was first published in 2010, available well before the current surge in use. Information on remote locations spread relatively slowly by word of mouth.

The big game changer is the internet. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. The surge in backpacking in the 1970's was mostly demographic and died down once the younger folks started families and careers. Most boomers of that era now recreate in trailers and RV's. Much written information on the Wind Rivers now gets churned through the internet quickly reaching a much wider audience. Yes, my book is one of those sources of information that gets into this system. I tried to put in routes in all areas of the Wind Rivers to spread out the use. I am also very low key about pushing book sales. I put information out for those who seek it but do not try to "sell" the range. And my profits barely cover the costs; the book is primarily a hobby project. What others do with that information once they buy the book is beyond my control. Very few people I meet in the Wind Rivers have even heard of my book. However, I really do not meet very many at all. This year was an exception because I intentionally got onto more of the classic trails.

A permit and quota system would be difficult to implement, but it may come to that. Locals are generally dead set against any permit or quota system, which tends to impact the locals more than the average user. Wyoming is a very anti-regulation state and although federal, the Forest Service is much more driven by local interests than the National Park Service. Personally, I favor a hands-off system and just put up with the hit and miss crowds. And just like the Sierra, if I want solitude, I can easily find it with a small bit of effort to leave the trails and get to the less popular off-trail locations.

And my personal conviction is that public lands are for everyone; nobody's favorite "remote lake" should be a locked secret for a few. I was very active in a group called Access Fund that worked on keeping public access to climbing areas. My standard for restricting use is when definite and significant resource damage is occurring, not just because you may have to see a tent across the waters of your favorite secret lake.

And I am glad you like the book. Thanks for your comments.

[Viper]

Thanks for your thoughtful response on this topic. I share your conviction that public lands are for everyone and nobody's favorite spot should be a locked secret for a few. The question is how much should we facilitate and make it easy for others to find those spots. There are different philosophies on that point, including the view that every amazing spot need not be publicized even if publicly accessible.

A closely linked question is the existence/location of secret fishing holes. Should those be a locked secret or should the information be shared for all to enjoy, as public lands for everyone? The knee jerk response is that resource depletion (overfishing) should preclude providing details on secret fishing locations. But the same could be said about solitude and pristineness at a remote camping spot. Those are resources that can be spoiled by overuse when such a spot becomes a publicized destination.

I think a more honest answer for both examples is that those “in the know” about a location just don’t want to see other people in their secret spot, be it a fishing or camping spot. Part of this is legitimate—we don’t trust that everyone will respect the location, LNT, etc., but part is undoubtedly selfish, because it can negatively impact the experience when others are around, particularly fishing.

I find these topics interesting and I don’t think there is a clear “right answer.”

[Wandering Daisy]

My experience is that a lot of remote lakes really NEED more fishing and not just catch and release but actual take. The fishery in the Wind Rivers is managed differently than the Sierra. Remote lakes are regularly stocked. The Federal Fish and Wildlife manage fisheries on the Wind River Indian Reservation. Particularly on the Reservation the problem has not been over-fishing, but the opposite. In the 1970's many lakes that had large fish now are overrun with smaller ones. The fisheries are also recognized as a very important component of the local economy. Hunting and fishing are not only done by locals, but revenue tourism it generates is very important. Wyoming is a state where the economy is almost entirely resource-use driven. Hunting is way more regulated than fishing and economically produces much more revenue.

Yes, fishermen (a good friend is a fishing guide) are extremely close-lipped about the lakes they visit. The fish inventories done by the G&F are basic and leave out many lakes that also have fish. I have pulled very fat large fish out of lakes that were supposed to be barren. I do not say a lot about fish in lakes in my book because I am not that good of a fisherman. The fact that I do not catch fish in a lake means nothing.

[Harlen]

Finally found your 3rd trip report, and really enjoyed it, and the subsequent comments. First, we were sorry to hear that you nearly froze during the storm early in the trip. I research a lot of mountain history, and as you well know, a heck of a lot of deaths come from exposure. For example, I recall a trip in the Russian Caucasus Range in which 20 out of 50 people died of hypothermia in a freakish storm. But "freakish" storms can be counted on. A Tasmanian friend wrote his Master's thesis on deaths in the Tassie highlands, and exposure/hypothermia was number one, and this in a land with deadly Tiger snakes, and wild, cliffy mountains. We're very glad you were fine.

Also great that you had that wonderful time in upper Harrower Basin. We love those photos, especially your b&w. That square-topped peak looks like it must be a Clyde Minaret type pinnacle from another angle? Really impressive mountain scenery there, and around Titcomb Basin-- a place I have always wanted to get to, crowds or not! Would September be the best time to see it re. weather, crowds, and mosquitos ?

Thanks for putting these trip reports together; they are really well done, and very entertaining. Cheers, Ian and Lizzie.

[pcole]

I'm a bit all over the place, but here's my two cents. There isn't a mountiain range in the lower 48 that isn't feeling the same pressure. I think there are some good points being made here - all of which play a part in the increasing crowds you all speak of. I have more or less every guide book (or did - lost my copy of Finis Mitchell's book) for the range. I love maps and books. Not every one feels that way. And for that I think we can safely say, the Internet is to blame. I live in the White Mts of NH and can't tell you how many people I run into these days who won't pay for information. No books, no maps, just a phone and minimal research to boot. Sometimes, no head lamp, just a phone. So I guess my first point is that books may play a small role in increased usage, but for my money I'd say it's a pretty small factor. While some of the experiences mentioned here tell of more and more people finding their way to remote locations, I for one am not seeing that happening to any alarming degree.
The main thoroughfares like the Highline and Pole Creek/Senaca Lake trails have always been popular. I did 3 trips into the WRR backcountry this past summer. On the first one (Aug 8-12) it was, of course, busy all the way to Indian Basin. But as soon as I left the trail and dropped down to Lake 10831 things quickly changed. From there over to Wall Lake and down to Cook Lakes, up into Bald Mt Basin and finally back out to Eklund Lake I saw a half dozen people at the most. Eklund on the other hand was like town park - people everywhere. This was true later in the month when my brother and law and I left GR Lakes for New Fork Plateau. From New Fork Pass we XC'd over to No Name Lakes and then back to summit lake before getting back on the Highline for the final leg. Very quiet all the way. Nobody up at Clark Lake or on the XC section of our trip. There were a fair number of day hikers around the lakes, but pretty quiet once past the upper lake. My final trip after Labor Day was equally quiet. Less traffic on the way to Titcomb, where from my experience everyone stays at Island and day hikes up into the Basin. From a camp just below the first Titcomb Lake I went over Knapsack Col where I saw one tent and ran into 2 additional people at Peak Lake. I stayed at Dale Lake, went up to Shannon Pass the next morning, climbed Bow and stayed at Lower Jean Lake that evening. That 3rd day, I saw nobody. Next day it was pretty quiet until I got to Little Senaca Lake.
Maybe I was lucky, but that's been my experience.
I agree to a certain extent with playing some of it close to the vest. People go into the Cirque and Titcomb and then start blogging about how to hike in the Winds. I don't mind helping folks who have access questions etc and the further out I meet people the more likely I am to share even more.
I also think a quota system won't work in the Winds. It's a huge challenge to design one. I think WD probably feels the same way, but the Feds have absolutely ruined the Wilderness Permit system in the High Sierra. Todays system of Online only reservations is nothing but a big lazy cop out. I stopped by the multi agency visitor center at Mono Lake one day in June of 2021 and had a friendly chat with the rangers at the desk. They were able to look up how may people were using Rush Creek to get into the backcoutry. They said I wouldn't have any problem getting a permit. A few years ago they would have gladly punched one out for me. Now they just stood there, several of them, with nothing to do but repeat that walk ins were no longer available the day before your entry. For me this epitomizes the demise of user friendly Federal Agencies. Most of the FS campgrounds have few if any first come - first serve sites these days. Some are reservation only! Scores of sites are reserved and never used. Even Fremont Lake has a similar policy. Fortunately for us, you can still cowboy camp in the Winds.
FYI I also noticed how much busier the Cloud Peak Wilderness is these days. The difference between a trip to Woolsey in Wilderness Basin in 2019 and a trip to Cloud Peak this past summer was startling. The number of people camped at Misty Moon Lake was downright depressing!

Peter
https://amountainlifetime.net/

[robertseeburger]

Well.. I am just reading this TR now. I evidently missed reading this until now..I guess primarily due to I was traveling.. to the Winds when this was posted. Oh well.

I really enjoyed reading this report. While Titcomb Basin and environs are popular as described here, it is also quite beautiful and it is good to see the pictures.

It looks like this was the year of rain in the Winds. Sounds like your first day was something to behold. My rain just a couple of days later was more of
a continuous multiple day event. I am not sure which is worse.. torrential rain or the steady rain for several days..

Commenting on popularity and people, I will echo what a couple other people say here.
In the sierras, I find if you get off the JMT and the popular trailheads, the sierras can feel quite isolated. I often go several days without seeing anyone.
I have now done 7 trips in the Winds, touching a fair amount of the territory. And frankly I find it to be the same. I have been to Titcomb Basin twice and it is every bit as popular as the Whitney region or the Minaret region of the Sierras. I came out on a Labor Day weekend a couple of years ago
at the Elkhart Park trailhead and there was a stream of people I think was greater than any backpacking experience in the Sierras. I would add that
there also was a higher percentage of dogs in Wyoming backpackers. Never seen so many. Island Lake was an absolute zoo on that trip.
At the same time, I have found that going off trail in the Winds is similar to the Sierras. You dont seem to see many people. And I would say a lot of the off trail popularity is the high route. While I have never been out of Big Sandy, I understand it is similar to Elkhart Park. The other trailheads I have used have been far less popular.

On fishing.. I would add something. There is a noticeable difference in how the fish and game departments operate. (CA vs. WY).
In Wyoming, fisherman are viewed as a resource. Details of fishing populations in many lakes are published, including size estimations.
They try to develop some lakes as trophy lakes, and will answer questions from fisherman. It is just harder in CA. And also the rules are of course different in the national parks. I am not saying one system is better than the other..but it is different.

One other fishing note.. Upper Cook lake, for those who dont know it, is the lake where the world record golden was caught (11 pounds) 80 years or so ago. Now brook have overrun the lake, but there are still goldens there.

In general, there was a comment in the thread about Wyoming and permits. I also get the sense that Wyoming would not like the permit system.
There is absolutely a sense that the government should stay out of telling residents what to do. And I have detected a little bit of resentment
from the locals about Californians in particular invading their territory. It is a little different.
But once you get out off trail, all such things are forgotten.