TR: LL Valley Circle- Mono Pass, Gabbot, Cox Col, 6/26 - 6/30/2022

[Gogd]

OK, so I am not a big fan of dogs on the trail, but like they say about guns: it is the human owners who are the problem, not the dogs/guns. Poorly behaved dogs are usually due to improper training and socializing. Poorly behaving dogs on the trail are the result of irresponsible owners who know their dog is not capable of dealing with the encounters that occur in this setting.

The regulations are a lowest common denominator thing in this context. If we held campers to the same spirit of restrictions expected of pets, the majority of hikers should not be allow to leave the TH parking lot, given their ignorance and overall lack of regard they have for the trail, other hikers and the ecology. I think more education and less marming/policing benefits all parties.

If Harlan says his dogs are restraint, I'll take his word until proven otherwise. And as long as dogs aren't allowed to roam at large over an entire basin and menace all of the fauna, I think the impact on most fauna is negligible. I'd be more concerned about introducing bug/pathogens that may harm the resident local wildlife, but that topic is above my pay grade to opine with authority.

I mainly post, however, to suggest there are things folks can do that reduce any potential bad encounters with dogs.

• Ascertain if the dog is acting defensively/aggressively. If so give it a wide berth, and wait for the owner to restrain their pet. Wide berth, as in 50 yards, not 20 feet.
• Do not make eye contact with a stranger dog - they may consider that a provocative behavior. Just the same, by all means keep them somewhere in the field of vision.
• Do not attempt physical interaction with stranger dogs until the owner explicitly assures you this is OK. Just the same if the dog acts skittish, forego any further attempts.
• If you still feel like greeting the dog, first do so verbally, and if that is well received, turn your body sideway to the animal, to protect your head, and extend the nearside hand toward the dog, held lower than the dog's muzzle. Do not thrust your hand all the way to the dog, however, let the dog close the final 18" to consummate the greeting. Avoid petting the top of their head or top of their body, as that, too, can be construed as an act to exert dominance, and elicit a defensive response from the animal.

BTW: Another excellent TR, Harlan.

Ed

[erutan]

Ed, none of your bullet points would have been applicable in my encounter though they are solid general advice.

If someone is on the side of the trail with a dog sitting next to them and I come over a rise 30+ft away and exchange greetings, it's my responsibility to back up 50 yards and move in a wide circle around the trail? I didn't attempt interaction or make eye contact. It got up and started running at me barking, then was snarling and lunging at me while the owner tried calling it's name then finally bothered getting up to restrain it.

I'll take Harlan's word that his dogs are well behaved, but that's not the only point. I have zero idea when his dogs come running at me (which is something he thinks is appropriate as I am not a child or elderly) that they are his vs one like I encountered in Granite Park (and Big Pine Creek, and Duck Pass, and...). It's honestly a bit surprising to me that the community consensus here is that the party responsible for dealing with off leash dogs are the people that encounter them vs the owners, but I guess things are what they are.

The attempt to lure me into some gotcha over Inyo regs over the past few posts after nearly a month is honestly a bit ridiculous, especially given his self-documented behavior in SEKI. I guess there's just a lot of dog owners here.

[Gogd]

If someone is on the side of the trail with a dog sitting next to them and I come over a rise 30+ft away and exchange greetings, it's my responsibility to back up 50 yards and move in a wide circle around the trail?...

I have zero idea when his dogs come running at me...

..It's honestly a bit surprising to me that the community consensus here is that the party responsible for dealing with off leash dogs are the people that encounter them vs the owners...

I DEFINITELY believe the owner is responsible for most incidents involving their dogs. I think most other people see things that way, too.

You are correct, my prior post did not address the specifics of the example you share with us. But there are measures and skills that apply to your scenario, that may have deescalated the encounter, or at least facilitated a greater degree of confidence that you could protect yourself. Learning as much as you can about dog behavior will help you better judge their intention before it is too late. We can - and should - take measures to proactively protect ourselves, before an encounter becomes violent. Our specific actions will be predicated on what the dog is up to. We need to be able to judge the dog's intentions so we can stay a step ahead of its actions. It is much like driving defensively. We learn these skills because it is in our own self interest. When a dog comes at an individual from a distance - say 30' - they telegraph their intention well before they are upon you. In a 30' range you can tell if they are friendly or intending to assert territoriality/aggression by:

1. Where they direct their focus (at your eyes- good- at your hands or legs - not so good).
2. Body posture (head raised - good - head lowered - bad if accompanied by a stalking gait).
3. Body movement (loping up to you with a playful bounce in their gait, or converging with minimal bouncy like movements like they were stalking, chasing you down).
4. Folks will also tell you to assess tail wagging characteristics, albeit I find tails can be easily misread.
5. Raised fur along the spine, crouching, and additional cues are there to read intentions before the dog has closed the gap.
6. There are also defensive skills that you can use when confronted by a determined, aggressive dog.

The above information is more relevant to your scenario. But don't get hung up on the details herein, my message is we can act on our own behalf if we know what to do. Reading a dog's intentions is not an obscure skill, USPS delivery workers learn it, as should anyone who wishes to avoid an aggressive encounter with a K9. There are YouTubes and other resources on the web that can teach how to preclude physical dog altercations, and how to protect yourself if an encounters becomes physically violent.

So Harlan, do you take three dogs with you when backpacking in the winter cold?

Ed

[erutan]

At ~30ft away it went from sitting down next to the owner to running directly at me, which gave me time to bring out my trekking poles out front to defend my space.

The larger point is apparently the onerous is on -me- if I don't want to interact with Harlan's (or anyone else's) off leash dogs. If someone is a "good" dog owner with their dogs off leash, then they are entitled to let their dogs run at whoever they want because they know that their dogs are well behaved so it will be a positive interaction (according to them). I don't know how that dog will react once it gets to me. The Granite Park dogs telegraphed its aggression, but other ones have ran up in a normal manner and then stood in front of me with hackles raised growling. If they're approaching me it doesn't seem realistic to try and look for raised fur as a dog is running towards me, and try and outrun it to keep a distance of 50 yards. Especially when off trail I don't always have a long line of sight when coming across off leash dogs (that are very often out of eyesight of the owner). Some dogs can also switch moods very quickly.

If I see someone with an off-leash dog coming down a pass as I near the top and I don't feel like interacting with the animal they choose to bring with them, am I supposed to just walk down to the bottom of the pass and then wait 50 yards off trail for them to pass and then restart my climb? Or is it more reasonable for them to grab their dog's collar and wait for me to pass them, given that they're supposed to be on leash anyways? If someone chooses to bring a dog into the wilderness, they should be in control of it and let other people choose whether to interact with their dogs. That just seems like basic courtesy to me.

It also seems like a bit of a stretch of responsibility to say that dog owners should be able to ignore regulations and keep their dogs off leash, and due to that every other hiker out there should take a UPS employee training course on how to deal with aggressive dogs to allow them that privilege. Not that knowledge of how to deal with aggressive dogs in modern US society isn't generally useful, but all the incidents I've had have been on trail vs at restaurant patios or in urban parks etc.

re: there being bad hikers, sure there are. I've never had one try to bite me though. When people complain about bluetooth speakers on the trail are they aren't told to buy earplugs, and that's far less impactful than being attacked or even approached by someone's off-leash dog expressing aggressive behavior. At this point I assume that if someone's dog is running up to me it's not under control and plan defensively.

@BigMan here's the second page of email permit from 2021 that clearly states "Dogs must be under control (6ft leash)". No mention of voice control. This years ones have the same wording for the regulation (as far as I remember), but do more clearly indicate that the regulations are for wilderness areas. Their permit was presumably read and signed.

I can take a picture of this years paper permit in a few days as well.

2021 permit.pdf

[erutan]

I contacted Inyo NFS and got an official clarification of the rules by someone in the Supervisor's Office - it turns out that the 6 foot leash rule mentioned on the back of permits (where space is limited) is only around people and stock, but that in all other areas an animal must be under voice control. However according to the LEO they reached out for confirmation from, voice control is essentially a 6 foot invisible leash, and dogs are not allowed at any time to be more than 6 feet from their owner unless they're on a retractable leash. So no dogs running up to strangers, no dogs running wild through meadows, no dogs running through the redds in inlet streams, no dogs out of line of sight of the owners, etc. This may seem "cruel" as it keeps dogs at a human pace, but those are the rules, and it is a choice to bring a dog into the wilderness.

This backs up my not well received argument that dog owners are responsible for their dogs not engaging with strangers without their consent (which seems like just basic courtesy & personal responsibility to me) and not the other way around.

Any dogs running up to me I will treat as potentially hostile and have my poles ready to create a defensible personal space, as they are indicating they aren't under control. Simple enough.

So, yes, @BigMan the photos of dogs in this trip report are in violation of official regulations. I'll grant that it's impossible to tell if Ian knew the legal definition of under voice control, and I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt there. Certainly the multiple trip reports where a non SEKI trailhead was chosen and there are captioned photos about his dogs being naughty for wandering around off leash in a national park once he crossed into SEKI show intentional disregard.

Here's the official response on regulations gathered after some back and forth. I thanked them for the clarifications and asked them to update the 2015 PDF when they can find the time as it seems a lot of people think voice control just means your dog can hear you yell its name.

* Dogs must be on a 6 foot leash in campgrounds, developed recreation sites, and on trails near people, horses, or mules.
* Under strict leash control, or at your heel at your command in other areas.
* Don't leave dog unattended or barking excessively.
* Pick up or bury waste 6-8 inches deep and 100 feet away from water, trails, and other campsites.
* Store dog food in bear canisters.
* Keep dog in your tent or car at night.
* Prohibited on trails in the National Parks.
* No dogs Whitney Portal trail past Trail Crest because in National Park.
* $150/violation.

Our law enforcement officers describe a dog under voice control looks exactly like an invisible 6 foot leash. If the dog is farther than 6 feet from the owner, does not respond to a voice command immediately the first time command is given, the dog is not under control.

Most likely you will not have a law enforcement officer handy when you pass by someone with a dog, so you will need to relay to the owner that you are concerned about safely passing and ask them to restrain the dog.

We do give some latitude for people using a retractable leash that is longer than 6 feet because they still have physical control of the dog and can reel them in to less than 6 feet when passing other groups or stock.

I had sent a further email before I got a response from a previous one (which included a query if the 6 foot rule was just for trails or also included off-trail travel), which prompted this exchange:

Me: That actually answers all my other questions if I’m reading it right - dogs have to be within 6 feet of their owners at all times.

NFS: You are correct. [then comment on retractable leashes]

[Harlen]

While I appreciate all the varying perspectives on dogs in the Sierra, and happily provided my own views, can this please be the end of the discussion of it here? It can be redirected as a new topic in the Campfire section--if anyone is still interested.

BTW, besides the dog, there were some beautiful lakes, peaks, and passes on our trip... and even a few nice flowers. Thanks, Ian.

[ironmike]

Ian, loved your trip report. Few people on this board exhibit such a true love for the Sierran ecosystem like you do! Looking forward to the next one (and hoping for less distractions)!

[Harlen]

ironmike,
I never thanked you for a very thoughtful comment above; I really appreciated both of your points.

Looking forward to the next one (and hoping for less distractions)!

As for that, I am right now beginning work on a TR from our time in Banff and Jasper National Parks this summer, and dogs will be a non-issue, as in Grizzly country, we had them leashed up for all but safest areas, and swimming in lakes. Saw a mom Griz, and her cub of the year, and got to watch them for over an hour at a safe distance.
Knowing a bit of your mountain traveling history, I assume you have been up there too Mike. Fantastic country, eh?! Anyhow, thanks again, Ian.

[ironmike]

Ian, I’ve never been in those areas and they are high on my bucket list so I’ll certainly enjoy your TR’s when they come out. I’ve spent lots of time in other grizzly territory (Yellowstone, Glacier NP, and Denali NP), and the experience was always humbling. BTW, were you by chance on the trail to Blue Lake a couple weekends ago…if not, I saw your doppelgänger!