Coffee grounds

[sparky]

The extra weight will be more than offset by the reduction of food into poop.

Jimr wins!

[87TT]

What if you eat the grounds ands then it turns to poop?

[longri]

If you can pack it in, you can pack it out.

Jim, that phrase would look at home on a bumper sticker but it misses the point here on a number of levels.

First, it is suggests that weight doesn't matter, that we could carry the same pack load start to finish without any change in our routine.

Second, if the ethic applies to spent coffee grounds it should equally apply to "spent food". Unlike coffee grounds which greatly increase in weight when used, an average human bowel movement weighs no more than a typical daily ration of backpacking food. In addition, the impact of human feces on the wilderness is arguably greater than that of coffee grounds. If you adhere to your own mantra and carry out all of your poop then I'm impressed, and I commend you for being part of a rare subset of backcountry visitors.

But more to the point, the phrase is a punt on the original question. The question isn't "if" you can pack it out, it's "is it necessary to protect the environment?". John Ditti provided what I thought was the best answer to this: basically, we don't know, and so it is better to err on the conservative side and minimize impact whenever it isn't too difficult to do so. I agree with this, but I'm disappointed that a more precise answer isn't available.

On a personal level, when I take real coffee I want it freshly ground. And I don't want to drink freshly ground artisan coffee in a plastic or metal cup. So my real coffee kit only goes on shorter, easier trips where carrying out the weight of spent grounds is inconsequential.

But since I know many people spread or bury their grounds I've always wondered if the impact was significant or negligible.

[Jimr]

The perspective I'm coming from is: If one adhere to the philosophy of "leave no trace", then the issue becomes moot. If it's packed in, it should be packed out. It just gets that simple. BTW, if you read the current poop thinking thread, I do remove my solid waste in wag bags. I can't count how many times I've moved a rock in the high country just to find smeared poop.

Weight does not matter at all. If one desires to bring coffee grounds, they should be willing to remove them regardless of the weight. Same with uneaten food. I've hauled several baggies of cooked rice out of the back country along with the rest of my trash because it does not belong there. It certainly holds more times its weight in water then spent coffee grounds, but I brought it in and I feel the responsibility to remove it. Organic or not, it is now my trash and does not belong in the wilderness.

I'm glad you haul yours out. I wish those you know who don't, did.

Is it necessary to protect the environment? I think it is safe to say that with all organic, compostable material, it is a matter of quantity. Where that line is drawn is the unknown. We tend to find those lines after they are crossed.


Sorry for the

[longri]

Leave no trace is an ideal that none of us ever achieve. Each visit to the wilderness results in an impact. The act of driving there is an impact in itself. Do you bicycle to the Sierra? That sort of Göran Kropp approach would impress me as much as your willingness to carry your feces for days at a time.

"Weight does not matter at all." You can't be serious! This is only true if you are preternaturally strong like Norman Clyde or are simply strolling through the backcountry. For most people it matters a lot. For some walkers it's everything. There have been many trips I simply could not have contemplated doing were it not for the diminishing weight of my pack.

Cooked versus uncooked rice weight has roughly the same water absorption as you get in coffee grounds. Maybe you like yours soupy? Rice soup is actually a very nice Thai dish.

I'm glad you see it as a line to be drawn and not black and white as your bumper sticker slogan could lead one to think.

[rlown]

k. lets not go down this path over coffee grounds.

LNT is the goal. Minimize impact is probably better. Most here are mindful of what they do out there.

[longri]

k. lets not go down this path over coffee grounds.

LNT is the goal. Minimize impact is probably better. Most here are mindful of what they do out there.

rlown, I thought we were being civil and mostly in agreement. Sorry if I offended...

[rlown]

You're not offending. I just don't want it to go "there".

[Jimr]

I'm not offended by anything said and I've been choosing my words as carefully as I can so I'm not mis-interpreted as getting personal or offensive. I like the mental gymnastics.

So,

"Leave no trace is an ideal that none of us ever achieve. Each visit to the wilderness results in an impact. The act of driving there is an impact in itself. Do you bicycle to the Sierra? That sort of Göran Kropp approach would impress me as much as your willingness to carry your feces for days at a time."


Seems hyperbolic to me. "leave no trace" and "Pack it in, pack it out" are really very simple concepts that do not include bicycling to the trailhead. They're merely an approach to being more sensitive to the fact that the mountains we recreate in are not capable of dealing with the volume of abuses humans have subjected them to. Changing our approach to minimize our impact is the key concept. It's really very simple. As simple as packing out a bit of poop.


""Weight does not matter at all." You can't be serious! This is only true if you are preternaturally strong like Norman Clyde or are simply strolling through the backcountry. For most people it matters a lot. For some walkers it's everything. There have been many trips I simply could not have contemplated doing were it not for the diminishing weight of my pack."


Are you being serious here? Really, we were talking about the weight of wet coffee grounds. If somebody is willing to pack it in, they should be willing to pack it out regardless of its new weight. If not, leave it home. This is not about all of the other decisions we make to minimize our loads, its about responsible trash removal and how coffee grounds play into it.


"Cooked versus uncooked rice weight has roughly the same water absorption as you get in coffee grounds. Maybe you like yours soupy? Rice soup is actually a very nice Thai dish."

Interesting. My rice absorbs twice its volume in water. My coffee grounds don't do nearly that. Even if they did, my argument would not change one bit.

"I'm glad you see it as a line to be drawn and not black and white as your bumper sticker slogan could lead one to think."

If you can pack it in, you can pack it out is very black and white. Leave no trace is an approach well written about in our community. They're not bumper sticker slogans.

For me, personally, I hate that coffee pouch stuff and I hate instant coffee, but I'm not willing to drag around wet grounds or extra kitchen stuff, so I drink instant swill- sigh, I love good strong coffee. I never intend to have leftovers to drag out, but my appetite isn't always there. So, I often carry out the extra along with the poop. Regardless of it all, my bear cans are much lighter when I leave that when enter.

[Wandering Daisy]

You could dry spent coffee grounds in the sun to dry them. I think this is a case of something minor for a short trip, but major for a long trip. Personally, if I am going out 10 days and have to stuff 10 days food in my bear can, I skip the "real" coffee and go with instant, simply because the real grounds are too bulky to bring in the first place!

The original question however seems to ask about what impact. Coffee grounds are suggested for compost. They are pretty good for the soil. They could attract animals, however. In the big picture, I think the "impact" is small. Yes, pennies add up. I am not sure that "Carry it in, carry it out" concept had coffee grounds in mind!

This discussion seems to now have devolved into pushing people's buttons, pragmatic conservationist vs. idealistic conservationists. In the big picture I think we are on the same side of the fence. You want to see junk- go on an off-road vehicle trail camp! These guys need to get the message.