Wilderness Trailhead Signs

[baywolf]

The Eldorado NF is in the design stages for new Desolation Wilderness Trailhead signs. The signs will be in place for atleast 10 years, so we need to get it right. I am asking those around the campfire to share their thoughts, ideas on what information is relevant and how that information might be presented. I am pushing hard for graphical representation of regulations/ethics instead of the standard list of use restrictions/regulations, pretty pictures, quotes from John Muir, LNT, etc. I don't believe people give the current generation of signs more than a passing glance. Is the information on the INYO, SIERRA or NPS boards relevant? How can we (the federal land managers) have people stop and consider, adopt and practice ethics that are basically foreign to them. Or is it just one big joke and why bother!

rightstar76
dave 54
hikerduane
quentinc
BSquared
SSSdave
Bad Man From Bodie

you guys responded to my post on Wilderness Character, what do you think?

What is the most important theme that should be presented on these boards?

Campsite Selection ?

Thanks, baywolf

[Haiwee]

Two of the most common ethical lapses I see in the back country are camping right next to the water and camping in pristine areas instead of using established campsites, so I would like to see some emphasis in these areas. I'm not sure if graphical representations of the rules will work any better than written words -- seems to me a knucklehead is a knucklehead regardless.

[rlown]

If people have to check in for a permit, and all the pertinent info is either posted on the form, or asked for in person, why do you need elaborate, costly signs? I personally like the Yose welded, rusted, metal signs, but they're only trail markers. Even the kiosks have a sign and info, but i wouldn't want those at the trailhead. If you didn't check in, you shouldn't be there anyway.

[giantbrookie]

I personally prefer a more minimalist approach, especially since regulations are clearly stated on wilderness permits. My guess is that those who are unclear about rules, ethics, and such and have a willingness to learn them (as opposed to those that do not care at all) will be more likely to read their wilderness permit information than a trailhead sign. My experience with those trailhead signs is that the majority of hikers at a trailhead are chomping at the bit and want to get moving, so they won't be likely to spend much time reading information posted on a trailhead sign. I also think that the more minimalist approach emphasizes the wilder "wilderness" aspect rather than a feeling over overengineering.

[hikerduane]

Enforcement. We may need to start paying for a permit to use wilderness or public lands. Pay our own way like vehicles on the highways or off roaders do to be policed. Or.................us experienced folks get the LNT speil everytime we get a wilderness permit, maybe the issuing agency needs to be trained to pick out folks with low to no knowledge of LNT measures and explain to them what exactly needs to be done when out and what they are doing to others experience by not following accepted practices. Personally, I feel like yeah, yeah yeah, I know what to do. I get the feeling that issuing agencies are just going thru the motions of explaining LNT and not knowing if it is sinking in to the person they are telling it to. One thing I did come away with a year ago, was the agency asked me what should go into my bear cansiter and expected me to respond. I was mostly right, just didn't give a simple answer which was, if you eat it or it goes on your skin, it goes in the canister. Quite simple example. I'll know the short and simple answer next time and I will understand it all. As for day hikers say in Desolation Wilderness, where you can get a self issue day permit, I don't know, more enforecement to patrol and educate hikers? I liked my experience at Lake of the Woods a year ago, I was checked for my permit in the late afternoon by two Wilderness Rangers who were working together, business like, no attitude, if I was in the wrong, make me correct it before they leave.

[gary c.]

It kind of seems to me that everyone is looking at this as an informed hiker reading the signs and we already know what we need to. Not all noobies ignore and disregard the signs at treailheads. I like the way that all the signs in Yosemite post the distance to trail intersections and final destinations. I'd also like it if there was a way to put an emhpasis on trash and especially burrying TP. Many of the things that experienced hikers already know or make a point to find out before we go someplace never even cross the minds of some inexperienced hikers. How far it is between places to water or camp for example. We all know that if you don't know such things you shouldn't be there but the fact is that unprepared hikers are too common.
Gary C.

[cmon4day]

Trailhead signs should contain the wilderness regulations, any restrictions, a map, and any other pertinent information. The Hoover wilderness trailhead sign even had a little local history info for our reading pleasure. I thought that was pretty cool.

Here is the Florence Lake Trailhead sign.

Florence L. Trailhead

[rlown]

baywolf,

any reason there's just not a standard signage at the trailheads? seems like a waste of taxpayers dollars if one go-forward signage isn't chosen. New signage sounds expensive.

Honestly, i don't mind if a sign is posted at a trailhead. It should be simple, assuming you already read the wilderness regs and got the permit. Beyond that, I agree with the enforcement statement hikerduane made.

A sign at a trailhead isn't going to make you change your mind on bad habits. I think that's a check-in/permit sort of thing (unless you're already aware.)

Simple sign, standard everywhere would be my vote. Follow the reg's as either read or given to you verbally, or at the Kiosk.

[mokelumnekid]

I'm with cmon4day. I only read these things while waiting for my partner to get done putting on bug/sun screen or taking a trip to the outhouse. But for others it may indeed spark some reflection or needful last minute input.

But I have to say that I am not in the least woried about "wasting" taxpayers money on this...given the extaordinary scope of activities of government (like the black hole called NASA), and the ginormous costs, a few 4x4's and a sheet of plexiglass isn't a worry. I mean that wasn't serious right?

[markskor]

Expensive trailhead signage - plexiglass and maps...wilderness bon mots -argh!
I too advocate the minimalist approach, much like YNP now handles it -
Simply a few names/miles to the notable trail highlights ahead, maybe an arrow (hopefully) pointing in the right direction; that's about it.
I can still vividly recall all the signs that were once posted along the start of the JMT at Happy Isles. Every 200 yards, they had one-after-another wood-framed plaque:
"Can you see the waterfall? Spot a pine tree? Something about stones and tones..."
Even back then I thought it was all crap!