Advice for gaining cross country experience on Pine Creek to Cottonwood hike?

[Fixiedawolf]

Hello knowledgeable humans! First time poster, but I promise to follow up with a trip report.

The challenge: help a long-distance backpacker gain cross-country experience and develop some chill!

Level of Experience:
Extensive on-trail backpacking experience, around 4,000 miles of PCT, JMT, CT etc. Additional Sierra trips include (the predictable) Rae Lakes Loop, HST (as a lollipop loop via upper Kern basin), and various trips out of Yosemite Valley. I have far less cross-country experience: exploring upper Kern and Thunder Basin <swoon>, small bits of snowy forest navigation, and some other minor route-finding but no off-trail passes.

Terrain Comfort Level:
My goal for this trip is to gain cross-country experience while visiting some of the many gorgeous places I have blasted past (twice!) on the PCT/JMT corridor. So, working my way from Class 1 to Class 2 passes. I am not a climber and have a low tolerance for slip-and-you-die exposure, especially solo.

Main Interests:
Like many, I love lake basins just at the tree line, and big mountain views. I don’t fish or carry a fancy camera, but do enjoy taking photos on my phone. I enjoy the occasional summit if it’s along the way.

Current Permit: Early August Pine Creek permit (hot + lots of elevation, I know) and Cottonwood Lakes exit (about 130 trail miles south)

Logistics: Flying into Reno (most likely). Relying on public transit + arranging shuttle to trailhead; hitching back to transit zone at the end. Allowing an extra night for this on both sides.

Altitude: Many nights above 10,000 feet; have gone from sea level to there in a day (but prefer not to!); no altitude sickness so far, just minor headaches and weird dreams. I plan to spend the night before I start in Mammoth to help acclimate.

Nights: I have about two weeks for hiking, which I’d like to break into something like 5-6 nights, resupply, 6-7 nights.

Mileage: Despite the goal of exploring and just taking it all in, I’m not super great at relaxing in place. I’m imagining a combo of 20-ish mile trail days alternating with much lower mileage off-trail excursions of gradually increasing difficulty. I have a (stubborn) habit of hitting 20-mile days consistently by day 2 on trail, even at elevation. Good swim spots and amazing campsites are good motivation for stopping sooner.

Proposed Itinerary:

Part 1

0 Mammoth Lakes (hotel)
1 Pine Creek trailhead to Elba Lake (or French Lake?)
2 Backtrack, then up through Granite Park, over Royce Pass to Royce Lakes because this whole area looks amazing
3 Royce Lakes out Pine Pass, then waaaaay down to Goddard Creek
4 Cross-country past Davis Lakes, use Wanda pass to access McGee Lakes (vs. the steeper looking more direct pass from Davis; or, skip Goddard Creek trail and go up McGee creek via Evolution Valley; or skip McGee completely and explore Darwin Bench instead?)
5 Over Wanda Pass back to trail, Muir Pass to Dusy Basin
6 Resupply Parchers or Bishop. Town night if permit allows. Just up the trail if not.

Part 2

1 Back over Bishop/Dusy to Grouse Meadow (or cross-country through Palisade basin?)
2 Trail to somewhere between Bench Lake and Twin Lakes
3 60 Lakes Basin via Basin Notch
4 Out Rae Col, over Glen Pass and then up to Golden Bear Lake
5 Junction Pass if I dare! Forester if I don’t. Up Wallace creek to Wales Lake (through Wright Basin if have energy, stick more to trail if not)
6 Back down to PCT (not high route over Whitney!), through Crabtree Lakes to Mitre Basin
7 Possibly summit Langley, out New Army Pass; hitch to Lone Pine

So Many Questions!
1. Quick permit clarifications: Pine Creek Permit means I cannot camp in Granite Basin night one, but that I could on the second day, correct? Can I resupply for the night in Bishop mid-trip (less that 24 hours off trail), or do I need to be back on trail the same day?
2. Would I be better swapping for a Piute Pass or Italy Pass permit if I can get one when the walk-ups are available? I will have to book flights in the meantime, hence securing something for now.
3. Does this seem like a reasonable progression in terms of gaining cross-country confidence? Would the reverse make more sense?
4. I have considered following the SHR south from Dusy Basin instead of so many trail miles, but worry about the final climb down to Palisade lakes, especially at the start carrying more food weight. Am I worrying about the wrong thing here?
5. Junction pass seems like a ‘challenge’ route for me. I’ve seen the many photos and read reports of the loose steep stuff, but is it a slip and you're dead situation?
6. I could add another night to Part 2. But where? And how to not end up misaligned with good campsites? I could also leave this extra day for whatever contingencies arise? Or, an actual layover/basecamp day (gasp!)?
7. Maps: I generally use my phone (Gaia), but definitely want to have paper backup for off trail. Is there a specific rec for these areas?

[thegib]

1. I've started at Pine Ck many times and always spent the first night in Granite Park or thereabouts. I've never heard of a permit restriction. There's a lovely meadow just below Chalfant lakes at approx 10800' that's just a hop and skip from the trail if you can't make it higher. Since you've the time and place - why not do the bear lakes loop? It's ridiculously scenic and also well traveled, it's great beginner x-cntry. With your level of fitness you can then fly down the trail from Merriam lake to say Sapphire lake in a day.

[thegib]

Or not Sapphire. You could make it to Davis creek easily enough.

[michaelzim]

Fixiedawolf...My assumption after reviewing your routes (and my head spinning) is that you are young and fit!
I understand that desire to just move, with my world on my back covering a lot of ground through gorgeous terrain. Sounds like you are good at that, but also having a desire to deepen situational experience - for want of a better term.

Ummmmmm.....I would suggest a much bigger emphasis in your plans for some zero days where you base at some particular point and get to know it a bit more intimately. Do day hikes from there if you itch to move. Staying in one spot (and not pitching tent incessantly each night in a new location) allows for a different kind of in-volvement of a place. The small creatures. The change of light. The sounds. The slow down.

Yeah I am older for sure, but that is where it's at for me these days. Going cross country gets me to more isolated places. Then I enjoy them, usually for three nights in a row if plans work out. Maybe give it a try even if for just a single two nighter...as your route sure takes you past countless places where you could get off the trail, get some X-country passes in, and find more isolated beauty just beyond the roads more traveled.

Best ~ Michaelzim

[Fixiedawolf]

1. I've started at Pine Ck many times and always spent the first night in Granite Park or thereabouts. I've never heard of a permit restriction. There's a lovely meadow just below Chalfant lakes at approx 10800' that's just a hop and skip from the trail if you can't make it higher. Since you've the time and place - why not do the bear lakes loop? It's ridiculously scenic and also well traveled, it's great beginner x-cntry. With your level of fitness you can then fly down the trail from Merriam lake to say Sapphire lake in a day.

Great suggestions, thanks! The restriction I’m thinking of is my attempt to understand the difference between the Pine and Italy permits out of Pine Creek? I could definitely be wrong! Going to to Royce Lake Day 1 would solve the problem if I cant do Granite Park.

By Bear Lakes Loop, do you mean over Italy/ Dancing Bear and then out Feather Pass? I would love to visit that area, but was hesitating based on some descriptions of Feather. On second look it really doesn’t seem so bad?

[Fixiedawolf]

Fixiedawolf...My assumption after reviewing your routes (and my head spinning) is that you are young and fit!
I understand that desire to just move, with my world on my back covering a lot of ground through gorgeous terrain. Sounds like you are good at that, but also having a desire to deepen situational experience - for want of a better term.

Ummmmmm.....I would suggest a much bigger emphasis in your plans for some zero days where you base at some particular point and get to know it a bit more intimately. Do day hikes from there if you itch to move. Staying in one spot (and not pitching tent incessantly each night in a new location) allows for a different kind of in-volvement of a place. The small creatures. The change of light. The sounds. The slow down.

Yeah I am older for sure, but that is where it's at for me these days. Going cross country gets me to more isolated places. Then I enjoy them, usually for three nights in a row if plans work out. Maybe give it a try even if for just a single two nighter...as your route sure takes you past countless places where you could get off the trail, get some X-country passes in, and find more isolated beauty just beyond the roads more traveled.

Best ~ Michaelzim

Michaelzim, many thanks for making a strong case for slowing down. Taking my first backcountry zero seems like a fine challenge to add to this trip! I fear I would struggle three nights solo in one place at this point (though I’m perhaps not quite as young as you imagine!). I’m also not at all hard set on following this itinerary - more making sure I have done the research needed to have the confidence for cross country adventures along the way.

[jlweinberger]

[The restriction I’m thinking of is my attempt to understand the difference between the Pine and Italy permits out of Pine Creek? I could definitely be wrong! Going to to Royce Lake Day 1 would solve the problem if I cant do Granite Park.

Hi Fixiedawolf. Your interpretation of the different between a permit to go over Italy Pass vs Pine Creek Pass is the same as mine was two years ago when I got a permit for Pine Creek. I took a cross country route to Royce that veered off the Pine Creek Pass trail shortly after it split from the Italy Pass trail in order to comply with the permit. As a result I didn't get to see granite park, but the scenery I did get was pretty spectacular. Of course if you really want to go to French Lake on the first night it's an easy off trail stroll from Pine Creek Pass up past Royce Lakes on your way to other destinations.

[Wandering Daisy]

You really need to do the math- figure out the mileage and elevation gains and losses for each day. In general, you can only make about 7 miles a day with off-trail travel. Perhaps you already have done this, but we do not have that information. A map of your intended route would be helpful for us to understand what you plan to do. No, you cannot legally go out to town overnight on the same permit. Perhaps sneak out and hope not to get caught.

To be legal with your permit, you only need to be over Pine Creek Pass on Part 1, day 1. There are some lakes on the top that you could camp at. Dropping to Elba Lake just to camp does not make sense. The backtrack to Granite Park may delay you so that you are not able to do worthwhile off-trail travel later in the trip. I would save that for another day when you can really enjoy it. Instead do a day-hike up to Royce Lakes from Pine Creek Pass for some easy off-trail experience, if you really want to see Royce Lakes.

I am confused about your Part 1, day 4. Wanda Pass is the pass between Davis Lakes and Ionian Basin (Chasm Lake). Are you sure that is the pass mean? Wanda Pass does not access McGee Lakes. Off trail travel on the bench containing Davis Lakes is very slow- LOTS of talus. Off-trail travel in Ionian Basin is not trivial. Off-trail travel from Goddard Canyon up to Davis Lake is not trivial, and time consuming. If you intend to do that and then over Wanda Pass to Chasm Lake and over Black Giant Pass to the PCT, then you cannot make that in a day or even 2 days. Very difficult too.

In spite of the crowds, Forrester Pass is very scenic. I would rather spend the extra time doing Wrights Lake later in the trip than going over Junction Pass. Rockwell Pass that goes into Wrights Lake basin is a good easy class 2 pass. Upper Wrights Lake is a stunning location to camp at.

Wallace Lake is one of my favorite. The off-trail travel from Wrights Lakes to Wallace Lake is tricky but will give you good navigation and route-finding experience. Crabtree Lakes are worth a night. Crabtree Meadow down on the PCT is a zoo.

Your Days 5-6-7 Part 2 are way too much for three days. Can you possibly add a day? I would skip climbing Langley- it is just a big slog.

[Lumbergh21]

I think I have a general idea of what you want to do even without following your description on a map. I don't think there is any doubt that the Italy Pass permit is needed to head from Pine Creek to Granite Park. I think Recreation.gov and Inyo make that clear. However, you could cross-country from Pine Creek Pass to Royce Lakes and camp there on night 1. Then you have the option of taking the pass into Granite Park, if you are interested in seeing it, and looping back out by Honeymoon Lake back to the Pine Creek Trail. However, this would add quite a bit of mileage and elevation loss and gain versus just heading back the way you came. Another option would be to skip Royce Lakes altogether and camp at French or Stealhead Lakes and explore that area around Puppet Lake before dropping back down to the trail via Elba Lake on day 2. Davis Lakes look beautiful from Wanda Pass, but that's as close as I have gotten. Several people have told me that they are not nearly as fun to hike around (very rocky). While Darwin Lakes and Bench are beautiful, you might want to save that for another trip where you enter over Lamark Col rather than an out and back on this trip. One last thing, if you average 20 miles per day on trail, the rule of thumb is 10 to 14 miles per day off trail. However, I still add in an extra day just in case and still end up cutting things out of my trip due to weather, illness, or just being too ambitious in my planning. Based on your history, I'm sure you already know this, but you need to be flexible even more so when travelling off trail. You have to be willing to say "nope, not doing that", especially when travelling solo off trail.

P.S. when you did the modified HST Loop, did you head back over Avalanch Pass after crossing Harrison or Forester Pass? Just wondering as that is how I got back to my car after doing a loop starting on the HST in 2016. (Not what I would recommend doing now.)

[frozenintime]

WD knows more about the sierra than i'll ever know, but i wanted to weigh in that i don't agree with her assertion that "In general, you can only make about 7 miles a day with off-trail travel."

many people do double or even triple that mileage on xc (or mostly xc) terrain. it's certainly not the majority, but it's totally possible given the mindset and fitness for it.

similarly, i think the idea that one must take layover days or "slow down" to truly appreciate the sierra is suspect. it's a common refrain and i don't disagree that taking hours or days to soak in these hard to reach places is a delicious use of our brief time up there. personally, i fall more on the slower side of the spectrum myself. and yet some of my favorite memories have been long days of hiking through the high country, with the associated rush of endorphins inherent to a full days worth of exercise and movement.

i don't say this to start a major discussion -- just to offer an alternate viewpoint for the original poster, who sounds like an accomplished and experienced hiker who knows how they like to move and are just asking for a bit of advice on cross country travel.