Wilderness Permits via recreation.gov 2021

[Wandering Daisy]

On that permit example, I assume the numbers in the date squares are permits still available and "W" indicate that all spots on the quota are taken. Is that correct? In either case where do you find each trail's total daily quotas?

[michaelzim]

On that permit example, I assume the numbers in the date squares are permits still available and "W" indicate that all spots on the quota are taken. Is that correct? In either case where do you find each trail's total daily quotas?

Daisy - Correct!

Here are the links for all the wilderness trailheads and quotas at Inyo and Sierra NF:

https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DO ... 143453.pdf

https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DO ... 213962.pdf

Best ~ M.

[Harlen]

michaelzim,

Kudos for your great work on this permitting issue. Many of us are applauding you for the time and effort you've spent in reaching out to the Forest Service managers, and also for your generous help here at HST, e.g., providing links like the one above, and helpful clarifications of the issues. Tah much, we're glad you emerged from the jungles of Africa.

* maverick, and many others too, deserve the same thanks.

[michaelzim]

@Harlen Tatenda! Famba murugare...uya shamwari musango imbwa.

[SSSdave]

Earlier this year when the current 2 week walk up system was established, I noted if this became ridiculous for we hard core experienced backpackers, some of us would begin to ignore the system and enter wilderness areas without permits. In the last month I stopped at one NF station that at 9am in the morning had a night box with 6 permits that were supposed to be for that day yet none, zero had been picked up. Well some of them could still have come by before the 12pm noon deadline however more likely they were all just no shows from those gaming the system. My suspicion is the FS won't give the public any no show data because it is ridiculous.

I've been backpacking for 5 decades with over 200 trips, for which I've always been the good citizen getting permits and following policies. However its broken...we users don't seem to have a voice, those making policy on permits seem to be insulated from advice, those good FS folks we have to deal with at ranger stations are as helpless as we are, walk-ups users are being shut out, no shows are epidemic, and they don't seem to care about no shows...go away don't bother us.

Another reality is the NF's due to continued lack of funding since the Reagan years, shows the government doesn't care enough about policy breakers to fund backcountry rangers that just gets worse year after year. Thus except for a few popular trailhead cases, it is extremely unlikely one will see anyone checking for permits. National parks are a different situation. When the pandemic ends and they treat us reasonably I'll gladly conform. So yeah I'm talking insurrection mutiny.

[michaelzim]

@SSSdave
First up. No that this is an excuse, but I have had this conversation with NFS supes and one reply has been:
"Well, it is hard to figure out just how to deal with the last minute no-shows but in a way what it is doing is lowering the amount of traffic on the TH in question - which is kind of fine actually. A sort of back end 'crowd control' method which is not a bad thing at popular entries."
I know that does not help someone who wants a permit but can't get one, though I kind of see the ultimate outcome of being better than swarms of people in a laissez faire system.

Secondly...seeing as I promised to give feedback to some NFS supes about the current rec.gov system, can I drill down into your comment a bit?

In the last month I stopped at one NF station that at 9am in the morning had a night box with 6 permits that were supposed to be for that day yet none, zero had been picked up. Well some of them could still have come by before the 12pm noon deadline however more likely they were all just no shows from those gaming the system.

I will take that as a presumed yes.

- Can I ask if that was east side (Inyo NF) or west side (Sierra NF)?

- Do you know the total TH permit allocation for that TH? I ask to see what % 6 permits would be of the full number-issue per day for that entry point. If total permits is 10, that would be 60% which is huge.

- I guess it is possible that those 6 permits were put in there for possible overnight shows, or morning (like before 11:00 am or so) shows, but had not been picked up yet? I ask because Sierra NF does this (has for me) in case I get to the ranger station before they have had time to do the permit and put it out. This would be where I call in for the permit the prior day and do the "rules and regs" Q&A with the ranger over the phone. Then, as my intent is to drive in the wee hours of the morning I may get to the ranger station before 8:00 am opening. Sometimes I don't wake up in time so end up picking up the permit at say 10:00 am or even later.
Sorry, long-winded, but a scenario that has happened. Also Sierra is a lot more accommodating than Inyo on this kind of thing!

- As you no doubt know, Inyo does all the permits stuff c/o rec.gov and email without a ranger handing it to you in person (some exceptions) so the no show issue is likely to be more "difficult" on the east side. Sierra still asks that you show up in person at the ranger station to pick up your permit, unless an "out of hours" situation has been arranged beforehand like mine above. From what I have seen the permits are filled and filed, first via c/o rec. gov, then ranger review, the day before. They are then ready for pickup the next day = the permit date, whether this be drop box (c/o phone approval) or in person by knocking on the door and doing the Q&A on the steps outside. Sierra's system cuts down on the no shows considerably I think...though this is going to be reviewed at the end of this season - thus my query here for details!

- Things may change again once Covid buggers off and we can do desk pickups, etc. So far I have found an accommodating ear with some supes. and I do believe they will attempt to tweak things if they can. However, I bet 100% that rec.gov is here to stay, so it is up to us to make noise about aspects that do not work for us. Admittedly, the leeway for change is narrower given that online framework and the reduced workload it offers v. rangers having to fill in each and every permit request from scratch. Sierra does seem to have a good amount of personnel out in the field doing Creek Fire cleanup and assessment - maybe because they are not all in the office filling out permits?

- Lastly, I just checked permits on rec.gov for Sierra NF and there are plenty for most entries, though "W" for a few popular TH's in late July and August. With 40% of those due to be released 2 weeks before maybe there will still be potential for last minute trips. I sure hope so, as forward planning for weather, fires + smoke, spaceships, etc. is hard to do more than about 3 to 5 days beforehand. August will be the true tell for our old "walk-in" loss.

Best ~ Michaelzim

[Wandering Daisy]

Two days ago I ran into three FS rangers from the Mammoth District of Inyo, on the JMT just south of Shadow Lake. They were out clearing trails and checking backpackers. We had a long conversation concerning the current permit system. They said that the reservations system is likely here to stay. The "walk-in" issue is a work in progress. They said they want to hear feedback (yes, I gave plenty!).

My comment to them is that if they set up a system whereby you call to get your permit e-mailed to you, then you need to have enough phone staff to do this. They said they only had 2 people in Mammoth station to answer calls and they have been swamped. Due to no funding for the system, it is difficult to get through. If this is going to be the case in the future, then they need to just delete the by phone method. As much as we can, we need to give them constructive feedback. I am not sure if a written e-mail is any better than personally talking to them. They were very interested in what I had to say.

We also talked about a lot of enforcement issues. For example, posting no-camp zones on a map, given with the permit, when a number of users nowadays cannot even read a map. More effective would be an app for their smart-phone or GPS that shows them specifically if the site they stand on is legal. Also "rules" such as no wood fires signs- a lot of anti-rule feelings nowadays - better to convince users of WHY no fires. They admit that personal permit pick up and "the talk" is more effective for those users who have not had training in "leave no trace". The way it is now, many simply say "yes" to the questions but ignore the rules; say "yes" they listened to the video, but do not do it; say they use a bear can but do not.

On my 6 day trip I observed multiple blatant ignoring of the rules; almost in-your-face "what are you going to do about it". Also had to put out one hot smoking fire, illegally built on forest duff, with no clearing. It took me all of 6 minutes to douse it with 8 L of water. A group of four guys sitting in their backpack camp chairs next to their tents, smack at the outlet of Garnet Lake, hooting and hollering and basically acting obnoxious. Many tents at illegal sites. Obviously the current system is not working.

[thegib]

I too assume that backcountry rangers must be underfunded, although I haven't seen their budget numbers over time, so I was shocked last year when we ran into one in the drainage north of Clarence King. He had just come down King Col! It was his goof off time but he politely reminded us to camp further from the water/vegetation. They're still out there.

[SSSdave]

Lowering the amount of traffic from already arguably low quota levels is not in the interest of experienced enthusiasts who are only going to become increasingly frustrated and revolt. I won't comment further on id'ing the TH as no show and those gaming the system were an issue (smaller) before the pandemic that the FS/NPS has not been transparent about as it is certain to increase criticism for their policies. I would like to see some numbers from those controlling the process but expect higher managements would have a fit if anyone did so.

Note I've been a fan of the Sierra NF wp processes for decades as they are considerate and flexible. The Sierra permit openings are bound to have more openings this summer because it is still new. I already have a permit for Bear Creek mid July.

What we need as a mature community of users is to craft up a list of wilderness permit system processes we would like to see and officially send it to the NF's and NP's management offices as it would be understandably difficult to read through myriad and dated threads where members have been complaining. We are also in competition with input for WP policy from well-organized commercial outfits, Facebook only users that act like they are the whole world, peakbaggers, and PCT through hikers, so they need to hear our views in a coherent understandable way. Maverick should be able to set up a special thread for this we can kick around, distill, and come to a reasonable consensus on.

[Wandering Daisy]

I too have met backcountry rangers on their days off in very remote places. They are "off the clock" and unless you are doing something really outrageous, they just as soon simply talk to you as a fellow backpacker. Once I actually offered to show my permit, just so the fellow felt he was doing his job, but he said, no- it was his day off.

The current reservation system does not work well for the shoulder seasons. Maybe OK mid summer when the weather is more predictable. But early and late season trips need a lot more flexibility. Often, I have delayed a trip a day or two based on day-before weather reports. As for real same-day walk ins, I have no problem paying the same fee, to help out with their funding.

When I talked to the rangers a few days ago, I mentioned that we older backpackers, sometimes cannot get our act together to be on time. This is a result of years of being retired- have few deadlines to meet, so we have lost this skill. And after all, why should we? They (all young) laughed and said that they too cannot always get their *** together! So I do not think this is an age issue.

Walk in permitting is still open to change, so I agree, that we need to press this issue. Lack of funding may be the root of the problem, so unless we also can advocate for more federal spending to go to the FS and NP systems, even though they may want to do regular fist-come, they may have their hands tied on this.