Women in the Backcountry Don’t Need Your Help

[Lenier]

It saddens me that this article - and the ensuing discussion - were deleted from a large facebook backpacking group I follow.

Anyone can guess why - a multitude of toxic men in the comments. Hundreds of nasty comments.

[SSSdave]

Thanks Maia, its something some men need to listen to. There are plenty of males that behave poorly, annoyingly around females in all manner of life though such was much worse decades ago.

I often provide advice for others on backpacking trails and cannot recall any time when such was not received pleasantly. On the other time have calmly advised many camping too close to lake edges to move back to legal distances or how their campfire is illegal given elevation policy and though most become embarrassed readily agreeable to do so, a few were not amused which has value because they will think twice about breaking rules in the future if they know other hikers, not just rangers, may publicly confront them.

I come across modest numbers of others, especially on remote trails where such may be the only person one sees all day, where the other person obviously welcomes some friendly brief conversation and such conversation naturally may involve a bit of sharing strategy going wherever. For instance how far to the next water source, crossing streams, off trail routes, tenting spots noted, etc have value and most of us have no issues conversing so.

In circumstances where dangers are involved, I may offer in trail passing, possibly helpful advice even if not requested. For instance if I crossed a swollen stream by hiking 100 yards above a trail crossing to a log jam, I might quickly note so. Or if building cumulus looked like a lightning thunderstorm was possible where hikers were heading towards a ridge line, I might suggest they hunker down where safe in lower trees until such passes. There are a lot of visitors who will value such advice and much depends on the un-emotional friendly non-condescending manner advice is given. It is usually unknown how experienced other strangers are or what gear may be in their pack so making assumptions is unwise.

The above noted there are numbers of people that ought not provide advice to others because they cannot talk about much of anything without being emotional or rationalize narrow interpretations of what others state. Same type of people I'll ignore avoiding engaging in conversation on Internet boards regardless how how hard they try to press others buttons.

[Wandering Daisy]

If you say "clouds are building, I think it is going to get nasty"- that is advise. If you add "and you should blah blah blah", that is condescending. And if the blah, blah, blah is something you would say to women but not men, that is sexist. Or if you would say it to some young person in their 20's but not someone your age, that is implicit power (pecking order) stuff. Or visa, versa- if you are a young person do not assume we old farts are helpless or verging on senile (what is the expression? OK Boomer?). Leave it to advise only. The other person then can ask what to do if they feel they do not know or need advise.

By the way, body language and facial expressions and such are as powerful as words and are really reflections of your attitude. Once you change your attitude, you will automatically come across as caring instead of condescending. Stereotype and prejudice thinking can be hard to even detect in yourself let alone change. I think it is almost inborn. I am still working on it.

[rlown]

It is called a smile. Masks kind of screwed that thought. HYOH. Say hi at the most.

[dave54]

I have encountered too many ladies that can hike circles around me.

I just assume they could teach me something.

[maiathebee]

If you say "clouds are building, I think it is going to get nasty"- that is advise. If you add "and you should blah blah blah", that is condescending. And if the blah, blah, blah is something you would say to women but not men, that is sexist. Or if you would say it to some young person in their 20's but not someone your age, that is implicit power (pecking order) stuff. Or visa, versa- if you are a young person do not assume we old farts are helpless or verging on senile (what is the expression? OK Boomer?). Leave it to advise only. The other person then can ask what to do if they feel they do not know or need advise.

By the way, body language and facial expressions and such are as powerful as words and are really reflections of your attitude. Once you change your attitude, you will automatically come across as caring instead of condescending. Stereotype and prejudice thinking can be hard to even detect in yourself let alone change. I think it is almost inborn. I am still working on it.

For sure all of this!! Being reflective and thinking about one's self and then one's interactions and the consequences of those are so super key to building a better future for humanity. It's hard. It's so so hard to unlearn things that just seem "natural" since they were just a part of how things were... but the thing is---the future is malleable, and we can make it how we want. It just requires us to work on our own selves.

I often provide advice for others on backpacking trails and cannot recall any time when such was not received pleasantly.

I think one lesson from this article is that your perception might not be the same as the person you are advising. You might not know how it was received. You only know how you *think* it was received. This is a super duper important point. People in positions of power (which can come from experience, gender, whatever) have a hard time understanding the reception and implications of their actions and words. This is exactly what power dynamics are about. "Well she didn't say no...., so... I guess she wanted it?"

On the other time have calmly advised many camping too close to lake edges to move back to legal distances or how their campfire is illegal given elevation policy and though most become embarrassed readily agreeable to do so, a few were not amused which has value because they will think twice about breaking rules in the future if they know other hikers, not just rangers, may publicly confront them.

Thank you so much for this! Calm reminder of LNT / best practices / local rules is so so important. I want to believe that most people just don't know the rules, so a kind calm approach of "Oh hey, I saw a really great legal campsite just over there... the one you chose is not allowed for X reason" is super helpful in terms of education and making everyone's experience better.

[balzaccom]

"I think one lesson from this article is that your perception might not be the same as the person you are advising. You might not know how it was received. You only know how you *think* it was received. This is a super duper important point. People in positions of power (which can come from experience, gender, whatever) have a hard time understanding the reception and implications of their actions and words."

Or as I teach my students:. What is communicated is not what is said--it's what is heard.

[SSSdave]

Providing general advice in human communication has value while more specific advice is likely to require exceptions. While agreeing with the general intent of what WD is stating about advice, I won't be drawing lines as black and white as related because human conversation and communication is too complex to draw hard lines, so what is proper is likely to be viewed a bit differently by the vast differences of others. In any case, I'm personally not afraid to stand in different shoes of most others in the kitchen and take the heat at times. It's part of life in these unique times with homo sapiens at a technological knee.

As noted, just like on this board, others, and especially directly person to person, have been offering advice to others all my adult life including much of my electronic hardware eng career. Doing so is a complex communication skill one can improve with by learning and experience, the effectiveness of which can be reasonably understood because if not delivered well, one is likely to at least sometimes receive feedback or at least an emotional response. Those that do so well are not going to view or behave in the world of human communication as those who do not.

As I've sometimes noted, key is being able to converse pleasantly without showing emotions that average persons are not self aware of because so many others are so most of the time as it is part of human nature. To suppress emotions in conversation is unnatural. The study of non-verbal communication is what much of that is about especially key to understanding when to proceed and when to keep quiet. Additionally, one needs to be careful anytime they challenge positions of others, just as I am doing herein. The Internet is an especially difficult stark medium where what one writes and how an audience receives such is quite prone to misinterpretation. I personally balance that by often providing more text than most wish to read however at a modest level that protects the writer from being misinterpretated.

[Wandering Daisy]

The point of this thread is not communication, per se. The point is, are men's first reaction towards women backpacking, that they are not competent? or less competent than men? Is your first impression the stereotype that "woman do not belong in the wilderness without a man"? Granted there ARE quite a few women who would not think of going out alone. But IF a women IS out alone then she surely must feel qualified to do this. And if she is not outfitted just like you, then that's OK too. Just chill and drop your "knight in shining armor, save the maiden" attitude. A great starter line is "hi, isn't this just amazing!", with a big smile.

Explicit discrimination is actually a bit easier emotionally. When explicit I can immediately get angry and tell the guy he is an A*H. A few years ago a loud obnoxious group of men were walking down the trail saying the most outright sexist stuff while I sat quietly in the shadows, they not even seeing me. That did not bother me; it just made THEM look like jerks. With subtle discrimination, I just feel a bit uneasy, and then later like a fool because it took me so long to see it for what it was. I can get hurt feelings whether the fellow meant it to be sexism or caring. So just think a bit more before you say things.

[c9h13no3]

just think a bit more before you say things.

As someone who regularly puts his foot in his mouth, this is probably the key piece of advice in this thread.