Spring 2017 Backpacking Cautionary Thread

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mkbgdns
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Re: Spring 2017 Backpacking Cautionary Thread

Post by mkbgdns »

agree about compass being overrated, particularly in Sierra with open sight lines and prominent topography. yes, I used to do orienteering and know how to use a compass. having a topo map and reading the terrain as you go is actually less error-prone than compass readings/sightings. been out there 45 years, and have still managed to get misdirected both ways and lived to tell about it.
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rlown
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Re: Spring 2017 Backpacking Cautionary Thread

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oldranger wrote: In 60 years of backpacking (yeah I'm that old) I have never needed to use a compass. Close once but then the fog cleared because I hung tight for a while at a point where I could drop into any of 3 drainages and only one was where I wanted to go. That said I'm pretty savvy with a compass. But the real skill needed in my opinion is the ability to read a topo map and the terrain. The High Sierra has pretty dramatic topography that for me means that a compass, though carried, is never used for navigation. GPS is just extra weight and I'm not smart enough to use a smart phone.
Remind me to bring a deck of cards and a cribbage board next trip :) for the hunker down/white out nighttime phase.
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mrphil
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Re: Spring 2017 Backpacking Cautionary Thread

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Point taken. My map lives in my back pocket. My compass doesn't. But those of us that know how to use it if we need to have an advantage over those hauling it around as dead weight and suffering under the delusion that it's a magical thingie that's going to offset whatever misguided stupidity we get ourselves into. Winter isn't the time to find that we're lacking in abilities, because standing in a dense snow-covered forest 100 yards from a plowed road might as well be Denali when you have no idea where you are or how to make it home.
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rlown
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Re: Spring 2017 Backpacking Cautionary Thread

Post by rlown »

I've actually done the hunker down thing a few times. Once near Winnemucca Lk In Moke late december (yes, i like snow). Met a couple who didn't know where they were. We played cards for a few hours and then went to sleep (them in their tent and me in the bivvy sac.) I led them to the car the next day. Maps and familiarity with the terrain helps immensely. You can see Round Top from most of that area, so orienting the map is easy, but then you have to figure out where they parked their car. :)
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Re: Spring 2017 Backpacking Cautionary Thread

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I almost never need a compass in the Sierra, but I still think not knowing how to use one and going without one are foolish. There are conditions in which map and compass make a huge difference.
-Blizzard whiteout conditions
-Dense smoke
-Dense forest with little or no landmarks
-Completely snow covered terrain with no trail markings
-Needing to pick the correct col from a series of cols on a ridge line, especially if ascending steep talus
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AlmostThere
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Re: Spring 2017 Backpacking Cautionary Thread

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Tom_H wrote:I almost never need a compass in the Sierra, but I still think not knowing how to use one and going without one are foolish. There are conditions in which map and compass make a huge difference.
-Blizzard whiteout conditions
-Dense smoke
-Dense forest with little or no landmarks
-Completely snow covered terrain with no trail markings
-Needing to pick the correct col from a series of cols on a ridge line, especially if ascending steep talus
-
- proving to the guy who thinks he knows how to use his gps and is wrong, that we need to head over the ridge to that coordinate so we don't miss the helicopter....

Any SAR volunteer is taught to verify what the gps says. Every time.
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Jimr
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Re: Spring 2017 Backpacking Cautionary Thread

Post by Jimr »

Tom's last point was something I started to comment about this afternoon, but dumped my response. It's really nice to be able to triangulate your exact position, well close enough to exact, then find the bearing to where a col is supposed to be located so as not to waste time talus hopping just to ridge hop because dead reconing was a bit off. The second to last time I actually used my compass was to find Carol Col in 2010 from somewhere just below Desolation lake. I knew roughly where it was from the map, but it was nice to have a bearing to follow.

The last time I used a compass was last year at Moose Lake. That was just a fun exercise in identifying peaks in the scenery. I agree that it is pretty easy above treeline to get around without ever pulling a map or compass or just a compass, but I still bring them both and will not change that habit.

When I was an avid diver, I lived by my compass, but that's a totally different environment..... Well, sort of like the mountains in fog. Sometimes whiteout.
If you don't know where you're going, then any path will get you there.
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Re: Spring 2017 Backpacking Cautionary Thread

Post by mrphil »

- proving to the guy who thinks he knows how to use his gps and is wrong, that we need to head over the ridge to that coordinate so we don't miss the helicopter....
Back to cautionary tales...

I know you frown at reliance upon electronics as your only means for navigating, AT, but other than the obvious issue of batteries, what is "the guy" doing wrong? Is he using the wrong datum or misreading the place values? Seems easy enough to plot your present coordinates on a map, determine the correct ones, draw a line, establish a compass heading from it, decide if the route is feasible, go there.

Confirmation is one thing, but there must be some sort of debriefing after the mission to figure out what went wrong and how to fix it next time.
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Re: Spring 2017 Backpacking Cautionary Thread

Post by oldranger »

Tom_H wrote:I almost never need a compass in the Sierra, but I still think not knowing how to use one and going without one are foolish. There are conditions in which map and compass make a huge difference.
-Blizzard whiteout conditions
-Dense smoke
-Dense forest with little or no landmarks
-Completely snow covered terrain with no trail markings
-Needing to pick the correct col from a series of cols on a ridge line, especially if ascending steep talus
I have found that a barometer/altimeter is much more helpful than a compass in the Sierra in heavy forest. In the Cascades in Oregon the compass has been handy. One does need to know the limitations of the barometer/altimeter and realize the need to make adjustments every time you get to a place with a known elevation.
Mike

Who can't do everything he used to and what he can do takes a hell of a lot longer!
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AlmostThere
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Re: Spring 2017 Backpacking Cautionary Thread

Post by AlmostThere »

mrphil wrote:
- proving to the guy who thinks he knows how to use his gps and is wrong, that we need to head over the ridge to that coordinate so we don't miss the helicopter....
Back to cautionary tales...

I know you frown at reliance upon electronics as your only means for navigating, AT, but other than the obvious issue of batteries, what is "the guy" doing wrong? Is he using the wrong datum or misreading the place values? Seems easy enough to plot your present coordinates on a map, determine the correct ones, draw a line, establish a compass heading from it, decide if the route is feasible, go there.

Confirmation is one thing, but there must be some sort of debriefing after the mission to figure out what went wrong and how to fix it next time.
You have to want to fix it, to listen long enough to fix it. If someone is convinced they are doing it right and you are wrong, there is no fix other than not going anywhere with them again.

In SAR we all got trainings every single month, review review review, and were all on the same page. In real life, going out with someone as part of a hiking group -- whether you are leading it or someone else is -- you just get what you get. So if Bob (nice generic name) has a fancy new GPS he just took out of the box at the trailhead, with more bells and whistles than his ol' Etrex, says we go that way, and you and your map and your compass say we go 55 degrees different, you get to a) prove to Bob that he is wrong b) help Bob figure out that it's him and not the GPS c) leave and go a different way and hope Bob eventually figures out he really should have listened, or d) go with Bob out of the way for a while until he proves to himself he's lost.

I have no idea what goes through people's heads, because they don't always share their reasoning with me for how they came to the conclusions they have. In one case the person was convinced the direction of travel arrow was pointing the direction we should go, instead of the direction we were actually going -- that was fun as the arrow changed direction after a few paces. It can be exasperating to get someone to recognize that no, you have to wrap your head around the fact that the map is always oriented to north, the arrow moves with you, and sometimes when you walk the arrow is not going to be pointing at the top of the screen... we don't want to head for Canada, the lake is to the southeast of us....

There is also this phenomenon in which the mental map of the adult human (children develop it later but don't have this yet) gets fixed in their minds, and it is very difficult to get them to shift it. I experienced this myself - I met some folks in a campsite in Pinnacles and we were talking over a map about what we were doing the next day. My mental map had been straight coming in, as the main road runs east/west, but once in the loop in the campground it obviously was not, since I was pointing off in directions that weren't right, we were down in the trees and my brain hadn't made the adjustment, and so my friend gets out his compass and shows me where north is, and my brain simply did not want to make the shift. It was fascinating to experience that so clearly. If you want to read more about this the book Deep Survival talks about it. Also about cases where people survived incredible situations -- plane crashes, being lost in the jungle, etc. and takes a look at what they all have in common. In any case, there's a lot more to a map or a GPS than just having it, and 95% of the hikers out there have the most basic notion of what they are really for. You don't use it often enough, you lose it.

I already know that I'm out of practice, which is part of what I'll be doing this weekend - getting some time with the map and compass.
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