New Yosemite JMT Permit Rules?

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tim
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Re: New Yosemite JMT Permit Rules?

Post by tim »

Interesting that there's no link to finishing south of Reds Meadow. So that takes a southbound Tuolumne to Mammoth hike off the table. I guess the logic is that you can always do it in the opposite direction?
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Re: New Yosemite JMT Permit Rules?

Post by caddis »

3) We will be more discerning on obvious work arounds to the exit quota resulting in denials.



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Re: New Yosemite JMT Permit Rules?

Post by RichardCullip »

tim wrote:Interesting that there's no link to finishing south of Reds Meadow. So that takes a southbound Tuolumne to Mammoth hike off the table. I guess the logic is that you can always do it in the opposite direction?
From my understanding, the reservation form ( http://www.nps.gov/yose/planyourvisit/u ... itform.pdf ) allows a Lyell Canyon Entry Trailhead and a Red's Meadow or Devil's Postpile Exit Trailhead. However, you will be competing for the limited number of Lyell Canyon trailhead permits (15 reserved, 10 walkup) that allow a Donohue Pass exit from Yosemite National Park.
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Re: New Yosemite JMT Permit Rules?

Post by CharlieW »

As one of the folks that will be competing for these 45 exit slots next week, I'd like to express my strong approval for the new limit. If I win the permit lottery, I'll have a better experience on the JMT due to the change. If I don't, I'll hike the Big SEKI loop instead and be just as happy.
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Re: New Yosemite JMT Permit Rules?

Post by SSSdave »

HiSierra >>>"...In the case of Lyell Canyon, a lot of JMT hikers go over the pass in a day. All of the in-park hikers will be camping in the area. Who's doing more damage? Hard to say without better data."

As noted in my post on page 4, the solution to reducing wilderness damage is more about backcountry enforcement than reducing or changing quota numbers. And is an important issue beyond the heavily used through trails. As noted the current social ethical behavior of this era in our country has changed for the worse versus decades ago to be a more accepting status quo of lying, cheating, scamming, and ignoring public policies. Accordingly the only way to impact the now significant portion that operate so to change attitudes is to have authoritative boots in the backcountry.

Although many talk about bear incidents, I see illegal campfires and camping too close to lakes as more important issues. As long as visitors with weak ethical attitudes continue to see the many established campsites too close to lakes or obviously well used firepits above elevation limits, these issues will only get worse. A NPS/NFS person will relate that they continually remove firepits and make it difficult to use those campspots as though that is enough.

Yet beyond better enforcement they are resistant to doing the obvious of putting up those little yellow "NO CAMPING" placards up high on tree trunks at such sites. Or place "CAMPING ALLOWED" placards on the many old packer sites still being used despite not meeting 100 foot distance policy, that send the message that ignoring policy is apparently ok. Every time those with weak attitudes see examples of others ignoring policy it re-enforces their own behavior to do likewise. Instead one only usually sees wilderness policy signs at trailheads or wilderness boundaries. Obviously would be much more effective to put up signs along a trail going up canyon right at the 10,000 foot elevation level where campfires are no longer permitted or at near approach to popular lake destination. And yeah I see little value in paying attention to anti-sign whiners.
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Re: New Yosemite JMT Permit Rules?

Post by markskor »

SSSDave,

Respectfully sir...
Lots of little backcountry signs is your answer to this conundrum?
Wow! Really?

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Re: New Yosemite JMT Permit Rules?

Post by SSSdave »

Of course the issue of signs in the backcountry has been quietly debated for decades and I've been outspoken. There are well considered advocates for each side both within the NPS/NFS organizations and the public so it is not a "WOW" (how could you think that) kind of position.

Those against signage essentially relate it makes wilderness less wilderness like which bothers them. However not much more so than what is already there as human foot and horse trails, campsites, firepits, trail junction signs, mileage signs, bear boxes, and human presence. In other words the addition of a few more signs in those vast areas is trivial. It seems to be more a psychological issue for those that are against signage because it contains written words which grates against their sense of naturalness versus say a trail etc. To this person that comes off as those who have simply taken one side of an minor argument and like a bulldog with a bone become stubborn to let go. Despite the fact the current situation with static policy is only getting worse. Personally I would be fine with less signage if numbers of users that were ignoring policy were much lower but that is not the current situation so the wise strategy is to do something to fix it.
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Re: New Yosemite JMT Permit Rules?

Post by CharlieW »

Granted, we can all agree that Millennials are of lesser moral fiber than my own generation: after all, we voted for "Individual Responsibility." Fortunately, the will to pay for these "authoritative boots" is not likely to materialize while my (ethically superior) generation still walks this earth.

Sorry for the sarcasm. Well, not really. I can't resist when I see curmudgeonry. Seriously, I'm all for more rangers and hope to see changes in federal/state budgets (or park/permit fees) that will allow that. Until that happens, I see the quota management as perhaps the best that can be done.
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Re: New Yosemite JMT Permit Rules?

Post by Hobbes »

Add me to the confused list. Is the exit quota only for trips originating in Yosemite NP? What's to stop people from walking into the Mono forest service office, picking up an entry permit for Tioga lake (exit somewhere south of Donohue), and then jumping on YARTS to the TM visitor center to begin their hike?

If riding YARTS into the park doesn't work, then why not pay the walk-in fee to Yosemite @ the Tioga pass gate, cut across Dana meadows - following Dana creek - and then contour around the shoulder of Mammoth peak to access the JMT/PCT? If you did take the YARTS bus to TM and ran into a ranger on the trail, how would they know you didn't hike from Dana meadows?

Perhaps YNP is assuming people aren't clever or adaptable and will just deal with the inter-park restrictions. As Schmaltz noted above, NAP/Cottonwood are popular because they're basically 100% slam-dunk, gonna get permit situations, whether for Whitney or the JMT/PCT. In fact, cutting through Miter basin is a double-plus win, because you can cruise down Crabtree to catch the JMT/PCT junction (thereby avoiding the yucky Siberian/Rock creek/Guyot sand slog), and decide to either head up to Whitney & back, or just hike north to wherever you feel like going.

Given restrictions at major points of entry, knowledgeable people will simply keep moving out to the next available THs. Oh, and get off my lawn! :mad:
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Re: New Yosemite JMT Permit Rules?

Post by snusmumriken »

Thanks for the belly laugh Charlie. And I agree.
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