High Sierra Topix

I don't even have a fakebook login. I'm guessing you walk everywhere you go as cars are bad.

tie wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 2:11 pm Even *ExxonMobil* acknowledges it https://corporate.exxonmobil.com/en/ene ... ate-change . But you know better, don't you, because of some Russian propaganda you read on Facebook.

I'm pretty far left and have devoted my life, in large part, to environmental causes. As a few people here know, I worked decades ago for one of the sponsors of the original Wilderness Act, and helped later with some wilderness designations. So I get the passion. And I share the concern that conspiracy theories are distorting American perceptions of reality. They certainly are.

But one thing progressives need to do is to treat people on the right with respect. We need to make an effort to understand their views without demonizing or patronizing them. Why? Because splitting people apart and hardening ideological divisions is a conscious part of the strategy of the far right--and especially of those Russian trolls that were just referenced. Every time we respond to anger coming from the far right with our own "equal and opposite" anger, we are actually NOT engaging in an equal contest.

Anyone who cares about solving really big problems like climate change has to begin with the understanding that no big problems are ever solved without a great deal of unity. The extreme right, on the other hand, loves to fan the flames of anger and vituperation since it paralyzes a society into inaction, which is largely their goal. Progressives need to do everything possible to avoid a politics of anger and resentment, or we doom our own cause.

I suggest we turn down the temperature of the rhetoric as a first step toward turning down the temperature of the planet.

Every president since George Washington promised to make decisions based on science. That promise is pushed aside when the politicians realize science based decisions can result in lost votes next election.

Laws are seldom based on good science. If they were, half the current environmental laws, policies, and regulations would not exist. Laws get passed by popular demand and public pressure. Good science is often very unpopular with voters and campaign donors.

BTW -- the much maligned '1915 fire policy' of suppress all fires WAS the state of the art science at that time and was strongly supported by a small environmental group called the sierra club.

kpeter wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:37 pm

tie wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 2:11 pm Even *ExxonMobil* acknowledges it https://corporate.exxonmobil.com/en/ene ... ate-change . But you know better, don't you, because of some Russian propaganda you read on Facebook.

...

I suggest we turn down the temperature of the rhetoric as a first step toward turning down the temperature of the planet.

Like stereotyping left and right and demonizing those with a different viewpoint?

kpeter wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:37 pmAnyone who cares about solving really big problems like climate change has to begin with the understanding that no big problems are ever solved without a great deal of unity.

Most people I know argue by trying to be right. Instead, try to be convincing when you argue. It's totally different.

Or just be like me and assume you can't change anyone's mind on the internet, and prattle on for your own entertainment.

c9h13no3 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:15 pm
...
Most people I know argue by trying to be right. Instead, try to be convincing when you argue. It's totally different.
...

You're no fun. Facebook has made insulting total strangers a lot easier, and safer.

rlown wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:47 pm

kpeter wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:37 pm The extreme right, on the other hand, loves to fan the flames of anger and vituperation since it paralyzes a society into inaction, which is largely their goal. Progressives need to do everything possible to avoid a politics of anger and resentment, or we doom our own cause.

I suggest we turn down the temperature of the rhetoric as a first step toward turning down the temperature of the planet.

You could tone it down by not referring to "The extreme right."

I used the term deliberately so as not to suggest that you and other conservatives on this board were part of my reference, which was directed at conspiracy theories, Russian trolls and those on the fringe of conservative politics who would like to shut down discussion. That is what I mean by the extreme right. If I had said merely "right" I was afraid you would interpret my remarks to have been directed at you, which was not my intent.

For example, I have never felt that you or the other conservatives who frequent this board have deliberately attempted to fan the flames of division. There is a genuine sense of community here which means it is an ideal place for left and right to search for common ground. People here have seemed willing to listen to each other's arguments, for the most part.

That, however, is not the case for the fringe of the conservative movement that constitutes the "extreme right." It may be easier for Americans to see how this operates not by looking at themselves, but by looking at other countries where the extreme right came to power and destroyed fledgling democracies. For example, Orban in Hungary, Putin in Russia, Duterte in the Philippines, Erdogan in Turkey, etc. These are examples of the extreme right, and they all capitalized on the politics of resentment.

For 10 years since I joined I have kept my work (I am a political scientist) separate from my enjoyment of this community, and it was probably a wise thing for me to have done that. I genuinely do enjoy talking with people who have very different political views than my own--you could say I do that for a living. But the electronic medium of a bulletin board is pretty badly suited to the nuances of sincerity and empathy that is necessary to carry out those discussions. Let me summarize my main point before signing off on this topic: progressives like myself who are discouraged and angry at the direction things are going for the environment, for our wildernesses, will be more successful in helping our nation change its direction if we listen to those with whom we disagree, show them respect, and sincerely engage them in conversation.

Please explain "the fringe." We aren't in Hungary. And please explain why the "extreme left" is burning/looting cities if you have time..
It isn't a good trend, and we need police. If they don't listen to a peace officers commands, that is a problem, as well as throwing bricks.

Anyway, we should get back on topic of fire season..

There were no fire departments until people started to build towns here, and the towns have spread into places that regularly burn. Before that, It would just burn.. It is the normal pattern. If you choose to live in a place that has brush and trees and don't clear enough, you will probably lose everything. Kind of obvious. I mowed the heck out my 10 acres and guess what.. no fire, but I do that in late Spring, twice.

dave54 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:21 pm You're no fun. Facebook has made insulting total strangers a lot easier, and safer.

Given the PM's I get from @maverick , I'm the MVP of insulting total strangers