Day hiking with overnight gear

[rlown]

Why don't you just email Yosemite and pose your question or call them?

https://www.nps.gov/yose/contacts.htm

All the speculation is killing me..

[longri]

Could we be blowing this out of proportion? I am amazed that anyone would day hike with overnight gear anyway. If you want to be mascochistic, haul a six-pack of beer - at least you would have some fun.

Out of proportion? I'm just asking what the law says.

And I think you're still stuck on the notion that someone would only do this as a weight training exercise.

[longri]

Why don't you just email Yosemite and pose your question or call them?

https://www.nps.gov/yose/contacts.htm

All the speculation is killing me..

Who would I ask for? I've already spoken directly to several wilderness rangers.

[rlown]

direct it to the superintendent's office. They set policy. Once you get a response, print out the letter and carry it with you if they say its ok.

[maverick]

Who would I ask for? I've already spoken directly to several wilderness rangers.

It is in the pipeline, have gotten in touch with my contact, inquiry has been brought to the attention of the Wilderness Manager and some other folks, but some are out of their offices and will not be back till next week.

[gdurkee]

OK Campers (and day hikers!). A few things here. First, there's several sets of regulations that cover what you can & can't do in a national park or forest. First is the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR). There's a bunch of chapters that cover most everything. Title 36 deals with all things park & forest specific (though all titles apply to all federal jurisdictions but Title 36 is just narrower in scope). The other set of regs is a Superintendent's Compendium. This is authorized by Title 36 to cover needs specific to individual parks. So Yosemite has one that's different from, say, Sequoia Kings.

The discussion here is whether it's OK to hike with basic overnight gear for safety (e.g. to bivvy if you get delayed). Technically, this seems to be prohibted without a permit under the Yosemite Superintendent's Compendium:

With the exception of people on big wall climbs, all persons who wish to
sleep overnight, camp, bivouac, or are in possession of equipment designed
for overnight use in the wilderness/backcountry, must obtain and carry with
them at all times a wilderness permit...

Semi-related is Sequoia Kings:

All persons remaining overnight in areas managed as wilderness (on foot or with
stock) must possess a valid Wilderness Use Permit

So as far as enforcement goes, a person could be cited in Yosemite if the ranger interprets what you're carrying as "equipment designed for overnight use..." . So the mere possession of gear is enough as an element to show a violation. The calmer and gentler Superintendent of Sequoia Kings, though, actually wants to see evidence that you camped "...remaining overnight."

I don't know if Yosemite's has ever been challenged. Probably not if it's still there. These are updated every couple of years and if a magistrate or judge has said that's wrong to enforce, then it would be yanked (and any regulation has to be based on authority from the relevant section or title of the CFR).

But, although interesting and worth pursuing, this is really a tempest in a teapot as others have commented. I can't speak for Yosemite but I doubt it's enforced if you're clearly on a day hike and have light bivvy gear and a good story (not to knock my current ranger buddies in Yosemite, though, but there's a tendency there to be not quite as mellow as their colleagues to the south in Sequoia...).

That said, In Sequoia Kings I have cited a (very) few people with full packs and no permit without actually seeing them camp. I broadly figured intent was enough though I suspect that wouldn't be enough in an actual court case. But, heck, they knew and I knew they were camping.

Most all of this stuff comes down to officer discretion which is just showing you have a logical explanation that doesn't have the intent of violating the underlying principle of camping without a permit. Overall, I wouldn't worry much about it.

[longri]

The discussion here is whether it's OK to hike with basic overnight gear for safety (e.g. to bivvy if you get delayed).

That's not the discussion that I started. I asked about "hiking with overnight gear", not "basic overnight gear for safety", aka emergency bivy gear. In the summer that's usually just some extra clothes and a mylar bag. My question was more general and included hiking with a full pack, tent, sleeping bag, pad, a bear canister and a stove -- with no permit and no intention to sleep in the backcountry.

But, although interesting and worth pursuing, this is really a tempest in a teapot as others have commented...not to knock my current ranger buddies in Yosemite, though, but there's a tendency there to be not quite as mellow as their colleagues to the south in Sequoia...).

That said, In Sequoia Kings I have cited a (very) few people with full packs and no permit without actually seeing them camp. I broadly figured intent was enough though I suspect that wouldn't be enough in an actual court case. But, heck, they knew and I knew they were camping.

A tempest in a teapot, yet maybe not in Yosemite? Or if a ranger perceives, without firm evidence, that someone might be lying? I'd say that qualifies as cause for concern. Limited concern, I'll grant you, but one hard to ignore if planning to walk a long ways in a day with a pack and without a permit.

In Yosemite I first learned of this rule when I was threatened with a ticket if I did not produce a permit. I didn't have a permit for where I was but did have one for that same day for a different trailhead -- the trailhead I was dayhiking toward. The ranger let me go, finally understanding my goal, but warned me that some of his colleagues wouldn't have given me the same break.

I understand the reason behind the Yosemite rule. It's similar to why you can't drink alcohol while driving or even have an open container of alcohol in your car. It doesn't matter if your blood alcohol level is well below the limit. Just the hint of it is enough.

It's not something I do very often. I used to do it more, before I learned of this rule. Then for a while I cheated and squashed the bare minimum of overnight gear into a tiny daypack. But I got tired of the deception. Once, I actually threw my tent and a blanket I was using to stay warm into the dumpster of the campground where I spent the night prior to a long dayhike. It was a way to be legal, but I have a very limited supply of disposable tents. On other occasions I've driven over 100 miles in order to place my overnight gear at my destination. These actions seem ludicrous to me but I didn't want to have to deal with a potential confrontation. I just wanted to walk.

[rlown]

Should probably stop this "conversation" until Mav hears back. Otherwise, it is rhetoric.

[gdurkee]

and included hiking with a full pack, tent, sleeping bag, pad, a bear canister and a stove -- with no permit and no intention to sleep in the backcountry.

Huh? Why?! Gotta say (though ok, I got your initial premise wrong, though maybe not the evolving drift of the thread) that would make me suspicious and,under Yosemite's regs, a possibility I'd cite you. Even in Sequoia without the explicitly stated cause of just having the gear, I'd tend towards a citation based on intent evidenced from your equipment. Sorry, no one does that and I've run into tens of thousands of hikers over the years. I'm open to good stories that make sense but what are you doing with all that stuff for camping if you're not, you know, going to camp?

That said, I still stand by tempest in a teapot. In fact, over 45 years, the only people claiming 'day hiking' with full gear are you and another guy from Sequoia Kings some years ago. No question in my mind he was going to camp and was scamming the system, assuming I had to actually see him camp and could get away with it (he did...).

[gdurkee]

Russ: as a side note, I was one of the people Mav contacted. Another ranger forwarded it to the b/c staff at Yosemite who are "out of the office." I like to think, though, that in my zillion years as an LE backcountry ranger, my input is a teensy bit above "rhetoric."