High Sierra Topix

k9mark wrote:When I heard about this it just made me shake my head. Rules and regulations are put in place to prevent serious bodily harm or death as well as prevent expenses to the taxpayer for rescues, etc. Its a shame but I cant feel sorry for them. I know thats harsh but theyd be alive today had they just listened. More and more our society just has this, "You cant tell me what to do" or "I can do whatever I want" attitude And it cost them their lives. Pointless.

Actually, our society was built on the "you can't tell me what to do" mentality. More and more society is telling us all the things we cannot do. There is a portion of the population (unfortunately not enough) who reject the regulations of the nanny state. The two fliers were in that latter group. They were people who only felt truly alive when pushed themselves right to the edge and looked death in the face. Inevitable they got too close. I do not feel sorry for them as they died doing what made them happiest.

Well MM, you, markskor, I, others here, probably all climbing enthusiasts on the supertopo.com board, and enthusiasts in many other risky outdoor sports, are generally in the No on nanny state policies and laws camp while numbers of others including some on this board as I suspected, respectfully choose to differ.

Of course these attitudes continue to get worse and recently was major national news when authorities took away kids 6 and 10 of a Maryland couple who let them walk to a local park alone. Of course for those that grew up in my era, regardless of how utterly ridiculous that sounded to us, it resonated with many of the current apparently coddled products of younger generations.

Nice! A civil discussion with views from both sides being input! Kudos to all. I fall into the live and let live group and think Mountain Minstrel summed it up nicely. We are where we are because people in the past pushed the limits. These guys didn't have a death wish. Far from it. They were adventurers that loved what they did. RIP

I find the simplistic black-and-white dichotomy this discussion has evolved into to be disturbing. (And I own up to my own contribution in my previous posts.) The “nanny state” versus regulation of human activity with no gray area in between for all the subtleties and nuances inherent in complex moral issues, has increasingly become the simplistic way people in the world approach complicated, often contradictory, contentious subjects.

As someone who has always existed outside of the societal mainstream, I don’t classify this tragic incident as something that should be placed in such an extreme, polarizing perspective. We are not here simply because someone pushed the limits. We are here because while certain individuals pushed the limits, other individuals realized they pushed the limits a bit too far, other pushed back hard, and most others fell somewhere in the spectrum between those three responses. The taking into account of all those perspectives and synthesizing them into public policy is how the world best operates in a democratic society. Sadly, if it ever was, I don't think our world is capable of dealing with even the smaller issues (such as this one) let alone the larger issues.

It's time to take a walk in the wilderness.

Just FYI on the rescue thing, I've heard from several people on YOSAR that the VAST majority (like 99% or so) of calls are from unprepared hikers. Climbers, and especially BASE jumpers, are an insignificant portion of their budget.

SSSdave wrote:Well MM, you, markskor, I, others here, probably all climbing enthusiasts on the supertopo.com board, and enthusiasts in many other risky outdoor sports, are generally in the No on nanny state policies and laws camp while numbers of others including some on this board as I suspected, respectfully choose to differ.

Of course these attitudes continue to get worse and recently was major national news when authorities took away kids 6 and 10 of a Maryland couple who let them walk to a local park alone. Of course for those that grew up in my era, regardless of how utterly ridiculous that sounded to us, it resonated with many of the current apparently coddled products of younger generations.

I'm in the "No nanny state" camp! People can get injured or killed by backpacking in the wilderness, or (much more likely) driving down the highway in a car. Do we want to make these activities illegal?

-Russ

Just a thought - why not be totally transparent - both sides. Accept and consider having a new regulation - having all those "flying" - a mandatory inspection and registration of all chutes and wing suits (just like a permit) for use when in the park...addresses safety and numbers...maybe a small fee to cover SAR?

With all the great climbers/craziness of the SAR personnel... IMHO - best of the best. Find someone from there competent and fair, just to keep tabs/ organize ...A Wing Suit Ranger?

"Both sides, Line in the sand, Nanny state, Glad you are not here"

Wow, I'm not on either side, and also think it's wonderful that Yosemite means so much to so many. Surely the Park Superintendent will give serious consideration to any and all ideas that can safely enhance the Park experience. I have my own list of requests to make as well, but it has nothing to do with flying suits, or the fact that two young men lost their lives... so better left for another day. My circus comment was just a lighthearted observation, not a value judgement, but I must admit, I have avoided the Park for some years now because that. I certainly respect those that are not bothered by it and can creatively thrive as well.

sparky wrote:They didnt have a death wish...quite the opposite.

Sparky, I like your perspective.

A friend of mine tells me he was up climbing El Cap the Monday before the accident. He said that while he and his partner were descending the fixed rappel ropes on the East Ledges descent, someone was heading up the fixed lines with parachute and squirrel suit, probably headed for a quick evening descent from El Cap. My friend believes it was Graham Hunt, the guy who died along with Dean.