Caching food in bear boxes on the JMT

[kkman]

Hey, don't be grouchy. I pick up trash whenever I see it in the back country and haul it out. And I'm not paid to do it, I just do it because it's good karma. You should feel good about removing trash, and better still that the commercial packers are doing something beneficial.

But, it seems we do have 2 problems. First - some back country bear boxes get full and "over 60% of bear box caches are never picked up". Second - I, several of my friends, and on rereading this forum, several posters leave food caches in bear boxes. And although everyone I know picks up their caches, the rules make us chronic law breakers, and worse yet we may come back to a bear box with our food confiscated and nothing to eat for several days.

So maybe the rule that would fix both problems is that all cached food must be dated and can only be left for a week (or 10 or 14 days, whatever works). And as far as having to haul too much out and having it take up cabin space, why not let passing backpackers have it if it is left over the legal time limit and really abandoned? And at the end of the season I'll invite my buffet-closing friends and we'll take care of any remaining excess food. It will be like one of those videos of piranhas feeding.

[gdurkee]

So maybe the rule that would fix both problems is that all cached food must be dated and can only be left for a week (or 10 or 14 days, whatever works). And as far as having to haul too much out and having it take up cabin space, why not let passing backpackers have it if it is left over the legal time limit and really abandoned? And at the end of the season I'll invite my buffet-closing friends and we'll take care of any remaining excess food. It will be like one of those videos of piranhas feeding.

I suppose that's a good rule, but it's unenforceable. I just don't see it as a practical way to fix the problem. People know they shouldn't leave food now, but they do. Requiring people to date their caches doesn't solve that problem because they don't do it now. How do I enforce that? What do I do with the food that people don't date properly? Who's going to haul it the 3 to five miles back to the ranger station? Where do I put it once I get it there? What passing backpackers? They've got all the food they need. I do give away what I can, but I'm still left with (wait for it again) HUNDREDS of pounds of food. Are you and your buddies going to visit all the stations with junked food and haul or eat all that out? What about the buckets and bags? I'll bet not.

I know you're well intentioned, but this is a real problem and one I'm pretty tired of. After a bunch of years of dealing with this, the only solution I've found is to just not allow any caching of food. Pack it in, pack it out. Pretty simple.

You should feel good about removing trash, and better still that the commercial packers are doing something beneficial.

Huh? How about not leaving the trash in the first place. That's really the problem. I'm happy to hear that you take trash out. You're right, everyone should. Alas, as far as I'm concerned, anything left in a bear box with no one around to be responsible for it, is trash. I'll also mention that there's rumblings that because of this problem (among other concerns), bear boxes may be removed entirely from Wilderness locations. I suspect that's some time off, if ever, but this trash thing is a serious and contributing cause to that view.

Sorry, but you and your buddies need another approach to resupply.

George

[rlown]

I'm all for taking out the bear boxes. After all, we're not up there for a disneyland experience. Pack it in and pack it out. Adjust your trip to what you can carry in and carry out, in an approved container, or with a resupply trip to the nearest town.

[kkman]

The bear boxes evidently serve a purpose, reducing human - bear incidents, or they wouldn't be there. The pack it in pack it out rule is easy for people like me and probably most people on HST to follow, but evidently its importance is not comprehended or remembered by many others. This is the first time I have heard of the end of season leftover food bear box problem and I'm sure many people don't know how big a problem it is. My suggestion would be to put a clear simple reminder at the site of the error, i.e., to put a plastic sealed, 8 1/2 x 11 note stating: EACH YEAR OVER 200 POUNDS OF UNCLAIMED FOOD HAS TO REMOVED FROM THESE BOXES AT SIGNIFICANT TIME AND EXPENSE. IF YOU USE THIS BOX, REMOVE EVERYTHING YOU PUT IN IT. DO NOT LEAVE IT FOR OTHERS.
If you put it inside the door it would last, and if in large letters people couldn't miss reading it. Give it a try, see how much it reduces the problem.

[rlown]

better to just make everyone put their names and permit numbers on the stuff they put in the bear box, so they can be issued a citation, if left behind. Pays for the ranger who has to deal with it.

Most don't read or care.

[AlmostThere]

On all the boxes we passed on the southern part of the JMT (between Rae and Whitney), there are notices - do not leave trash. Pack it out. Don't put bear canisters in the boxes. All of them had noxious trash in, sometimes a few items that were still usable like tampons or TP also.

And then there were the two guys scrounging from box to box. Clearly they had not planned resupplies very well. I was glad we were in camp or they might have made off with the bag of snacks I had put in the box (first day out, ate less than anticipated).

The boxes at trailheads in Inyo are clearly marked (the ones at Onion and Horseshoe, anyway) - Mark your stuff with your anticipated exit date. If you don't come back for it within two days of the date, it'll get tossed. If it's not marked, it goes out.

Rangers hike the trails with daypacks - I saw four of them in four days - and they are not trash pickup any more than other hikers are. Leaving junk in backcountry boxes is just plain rude, there are obviously space issues in the height of summer when a lot of people are on the trail, and it encourages the scroungers. And leaving stuff in trailhead boxes filling them to the brim leads to people leaving stuff in cars, which in places like Yosemite led to bears figuring out they can rip open car doors. People just need to pick up after themselves!

[richlong8]

" The same is true of bear canisters stashed off trail and meant as a cache -- I find and confiscate about half a dozen of those per season. You can pick up your cache (if the ranger's there) along with a citation."

I have some trouble with this.
Does this mean that we are officially not allowed to stash/cache any food, even in a legal bearcan...(with an attached posted/date to pick up note) somewhere backcountry SEKI?...assume hidden off trail and not in a bear box.
I know the "Did-not-return-and-pick-up" rate must be high, but are you saying that if you found a fully loaded bear can, under some rocks/cairn on July 28th, and a note said JMT pickup...~Aug 5th with a name...you would still take it and fine the individual too?
Seems harsh.

[/quote]

Personally, I try to stay away from real popular areas, where the bear boxes, and "grouchy" rangers tend to be located. If a ranger finds someone's cache of food in a bear canister located in an isolated spot, maybe the hiker caching the food did not conceal it good enough. Not everyone has the big bucks, desire, and wherewithal to use the resorts to buy or pickup food. They should have the option to cache some food in a bear canister without a ranger overreacting because he is tired of picking up trash. What is it really hurting, if its concealed and sealed up?

[rlown]

" The same is true of bear canisters stashed off trail and meant as a cache -- I find and confiscate about half a dozen of those per season. You can pick up your cache (if the ranger's there) along with a citation."

I have some trouble with this.
Does this mean that we are officially not allowed to stash/cache any food, even in a legal bearcan...(with an attached posted/date to pick up note) somewhere backcountry SEKI?...assume hidden off trail and not in a bear box.
I know the "Did-not-return-and-pick-up" rate must be high, but are you saying that if you found a fully loaded bear can, under some rocks/cairn on July 28th, and a note said JMT pickup...~Aug 5th with a name...you would still take it and fine the individual too?
Seems harsh.

Personally, I try to stay away from real popular areas, where the bear boxes, and "grouchy" rangers tend to be located. If a ranger finds someone's cache of food in a bear canister located in an isolated spot, maybe the hiker caching the food did not conceal it good enough. Not everyone has the big bucks, desire, and wherewithal to use the resorts to buy or pickup food. They should have the option to cache some food in a bear canister without a ranger overreacting because he is tired of picking up trash. What is it really hurting, if its concealed and sealed up?

there should be no option to cache. you wanna hide something, fine. (not really.) If you don't pick it up, that's lame. It's a wilderness. You do what you can in the time alotted. the bear boxes in the back country are a crutch. my opinion.

Now, if someone was to cache their food in a bearikade.. Thats money..

[AlmostThere]

Personally, I try to stay away from real popular areas, where the bear boxes, and "grouchy" rangers tend to be located. If a ranger finds someone's cache of food in a bear canister located in an isolated spot, maybe the hiker caching the food did not conceal it good enough. Not everyone has the big bucks, desire, and wherewithal to use the resorts to buy or pickup food. They should have the option to cache some food in a bear canister without a ranger overreacting because he is tired of picking up trash. What is it really hurting, if its concealed and sealed up?

After much consideration of this... I have a few questions.

How much did you spend on the gas to get to trailheads to set out those caches?
How much did you spend on bear canisters to contain the caches?
How much would it cost per side trip to resupply at a store/resort?
Would you REALLY label rangers grouchy or overreacting when trash in the backcountry is a HUGE PROBLEM?

It kind of IS a huge problem, you know. Want a bag of old fishing tackle? I'm sure I'll carry another one out next Sunday...

[rlown]

I know Gdurkee is out at his post right now, so he won't answer until well, whenever.. So, he cant comment at this point.

Take out the boxes in the backcountry, unless supervised at like an HSC. Trailhead boxes make sense to keep the bears off the vehicles (still don't like the theft).. Hikers need to figure this out for themselves. And get fined if they screw up. A crutch is still a crutch..