High Sierra Topix

erutan writes:

Honestly not a fan of people with off leash dogs in the wilderness - there's a reason why your Inyo permit says your pet must be under control (6 foot leash at all times). Aside from the environmental impacts (running through redds in inlet pools, having marmots and pikas stop their foraging, etc)...

Erutan, If we ever run into each other in the mountains, and Bearzy is with me, I am 99% certain (been with him 7.5 yrs now) that you will either see a dog on his own mission, cruising about, and ignoring all of us, or if you're lucky, a friendly dog, with his ears down, squirming a bit in anticipation of perhaps a pat on the head. He will not bark, nor show a single sign of aggression. Bearzy has never been in a dog fight-- let alone hassled a human.

My thought is that in a more perfect world, dog owners could go through a sort of exam with their dog, wherein a dog expert would assess the dog's behavior, and I would sign my life away (on a liability waiver) to receive the "safe dog permit," confident that my dog will never attack or harass a person on the trail... or on the beach, down at the lake....

Regarding your statement above, we too are absolutely not fans of aggressive, or out of control dogs in public places. I actually can get pretty wild myself when I have to pull aggressive dogs away from our dogs, or children. Do you agree that the rules are largely to do with dogs of that nature, and may not apply to non-aggressive dogs? Re. your second important point about wildlife disturbance, I understand the concept of "take," to describe adverse effects on wildlife- much of my career work was an attempt to minimize "take" on a variety of Rare, T. and E. species. You are right to point out that "take" is more that just the obvious lethal events, but includes significant harrassment, and habitat degradation. So, with Bearzy and Wolfie, we minimize that by having trained them to break off the pursuit of any animal, and we try to keep them (and us) out of sensitive habitat areas. They are both trained with a snake-like hiss, and the words Sloooow" to stop, and if repeated, to walk behind us, so they are effectively "leashed." We dutifully bury their ****, or cover them with large rocks. However, I think I may be correct in my assumption that a domestic dog chasing the odd squirrel, or hare, is not far outside the natural realm, that is, these prey species are well adapted to being chased, and were chased more frequently in the past when Gray Wolves and Red Foxes, Fishers, and other predator species were more common. The caveat, of course, is that when domestic dogs become more common, and chase more than the former native predators did, then it must stop.

We care a lot about the wilderness, but admittedly run into conflicts, as we care for our dogs like children, and want them to express themselves and have a great life. With that in mind, I must say that I believe that to always have a dog leashed, and stuck at our own paltry pace, is a refined and inexcusable form of torture! Mind you, Lizzie and I are quick to leash them whenever little people, old people, or other leashed dogs are present.

It seems to me that plenty of dog owners think their animal is under voice control (the one that attacked me last trip had it's name called a few times to no effect) because they come when called in their backyard or whatever at home and consider them friendly. :/ The attack from our last trip happened when the dog was was right next to one of the owners - he could have easily grabbed it's collar as we were passing by but didn't feel it was necessary (we're neither elderly or children to give your previous example). I assume it felt it was "protecting" them as we stopped to say hi etc and were maybe 20ft away - I'm not sure what percentage of dogs can be voice controlled when they're in a fight/protect mode but I assume it's a small minority. I find that dog owners will often let their dogs roam out of their range of vision when off-trail because they assume no one else will be around, which is one case where one was threatening me coming down from the glacier in Big Pine canyon a few seasons back.

I'm sure there'd be some multi-step process to go through, but with NFS funding the way it is (they're getting more, but a lot of that is going to fire prevention and backlogged maintenance) I'm not sure how well it'd be enforced. I'd certainly feel better if people had to have some sort of qualification to bring a dog along period, or at least have heavy fines for a dog off-leash that didn't pass some sort of accredited voice control test. When I come across one on trail I have no idea how well trained a dog is, what it's temperament is, or how competent it's owners are so automatically try to give them a wide berth and view them with extreme caution.

I was on a hike in the southwest when someone was hiking down canyon with an off leash dog when we were coming out, it was between us, he called out "right" and it switched positions so he was between us and his dog. That impressed me!

I was surprised last season at a night at McGee lake when a group came up with two small dogs - they were leashed but the four marmots and pika we had been admiring from our camp disappeared and never came back when the dogs were nearby. They were a LOT more sensitive to their presence than ours. Obviously predators come out in nature and animals hide, but in heavy use areas having a lot of dogs around could effectively limit foraging habitat for wild species. I think this is a relatively localized impact, but it is a potentially significant one.

update:

It's also not unusual to hear on and off barking for hours when camping on a first or last night of a trip, which is annoying.

It sounds like you and your dogs would be a minority I wouldn't have any major problems with, but as you point out a lot of dog owners have a massive emotional attachment to their animals which clouds their judgement. I've literally had people tell me, multiple times, not to worry because their dog is friendly after it's been growling at me with it's hackles up. That's ridiculous, and I call them out on that - either they're in denial, incompetent, or just trying to gaslight me, but I know what "friendly" is and that isn't it.

Looks like a really beautiful area. Thanks for posting.
-Phil

Ah this great report to such a wonderful area was posted while I was away in Newfoundland doing geologic field research (much of it helicopter-aided). I have time to post, now that I'm waiting for my plane at Deer Lake airport. Anyhow what a great report on a trip to one of my very favorite parts of the Sierra with some really nice goldens to boot. The lake that produced the larger goldens remains my daughter Dawn's favorite lake. Judy, Dawn, and I were comparing "favorite lakes" before I left on this expedition.

Hi Ian,

Great report as always. The Scarlet Gilia is stunning; I seldom recall encountering them, so I'll be on the lookout the next time I'm in the Sierra. That was an impressive mound of snow on Gabbott and I suspect it made the climbing easier. Like you, I'm surprised at the dearth of folk you ran into, but as I noted in a recent TR, that trend has extended well into July. Either the Sierra is doing a better job of swallowing up people, or the ones that are there are just being incredibly stealthy. happy trails, Cameron

Nice photos - The crest along Mills Creek looks amazing. Hot tip on the campsite

erutan wrote: ↑Mon Jul 11, 2022 9:40 am...your Inyo permit says your pet must be under control (6 foot leash at all times).

It really reads like you're saying that Harlan's permit required him to keep his dog on leash at all times.

Is that what you intended to say?

On the back of the permit under additional regulations, it clearly states all dogs must be under control (a 6 foot leash) while in designated wilderness areas. In non-wilderness areas (general NFS land) they're allowed to be under voice or leash control, so not at all times.

I've had multiple experiences where people's dogs were definitely not under voice control in wilderness, let alone general NFS land, though this is the first time one actually attacked me vs growling with it's hackles up. The larger issue is that myself (and others) have no idea of knowing if someone's dog is actually friendly, or if it's one of those dogs that owner's have assured me is "friendly" after it's been growling at me for a minute heh. Just because a dog owner "knows" that their dogs will be well behaved, doesn't mean that strangers seeing a random dog running at them are going to have a universally positive experience. A few years back my partner's father was sent to the ER by a neighbor's off leash dog he'd met many times over a few years that had always been friendly. He dropped his hand to let it sniff him / give it a pat and it sunk its teeth into his forearm. That's not an experience I want in the backcountry.

A lot of dog owners will grab their dogs collar near the leash or just grab the collar itself when people are near, which I appreciate and usually thank them for doing to reinforce good behavior. IMO if you bring a dog into the backcountry, you should try and minimize it’s impact on others by default unless they opt-in and show some sign of wanting to interact with the dog.

Ironically domesticated dogs are the only animals I've felt threatened by in well over a year of trail time in the range.

I've gotten interesting sideband on this ranging from people cheering me on that are afraid to engage the topic here to being called thin-skinned (which is true I guess, I'm not bite proof) and an example of typical internet negativity.

erutan wrote: ↑Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:15 am On the back of the permit under additional regulations, it clearly states all dogs must be under control (a 6 foot leash) while in designated wilderness areas. In non-wilderness areas (general NFS land) they're allowed to be under voice or leash control, so not at all times.

Can you please quote the rule from the permit verbatim? Warranted given your implication that another HST member violated it.

Here's what Inyo NF says online about dogs on wilderness trails:

"Dogs must always be under strict leash or voice control."

https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DO ... 486905.pdf

I don't have a permit on me at the moment, but read the back of one and it'll say that in wilderness areas dogs must be under control (6 foot leash) with no mention of voice control. Again, I double checked this with a ranger in person (in regards to the off leash dog that attacked me in Granite Park, not this thread) and they were upset that someone had a dog off-leash in the wilderness and told me it wasn't permitted. I can take a picture the next time I pick one up.

He's posted pictures of his dogs off leash in national parks and made jokes about that fact, so I don't think there's any doubt regarding that regulations are repeatedly ignored because it'd be "cruel" to his dogs to follow them, even if in this instance there's some ambiguity due to older documents being online that contradict current policy. It's worth noting that you're pitting a document from 2015 vs a permit from 2022.

Aside from the legality of the issue, it'd seem to me a ethical one (or at least basic courtesy) to restrain off leash dogs when strangers in the area, instead of having them run up to people who don't know them, regardless of age. If someone chooses to bring a dog, they shouldn't impose that choice on others without their consent. I'm sure the owner who was less than a foot from his dog when it ran up to me snarling and lunging when we stopped to chat was sure his dog was "friendly" as well and hence didn't bother to restrain it.