I STOPPED HIKING THE PCT BECAUSE OF TOXIC MA

[apeman45]

Here it is - the Wilderness Act of 1964. It's the law.

Read the definition of wilderness section. The quota system and necessary regulations like no fires above 10k and camping 200 feet from water, and the leave no trace policies have certainly greatly enhanced everyone's chance of having "an outstanding chance at solitude". We can debate this all day with our different interpretations. I'm seeing a lot of ideas that are mocking science and the government agencies responsible for enforcing this law. Someone referenced the road closure in 1999 in Jarbridge Nevada. Here's the story here.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WP ... 9-idx.html
That was an early incarnation of the Bundy Clan where armed vigilante militias came from neighboring states to point guns at federal employees trying to do their jobs. The real agenda of these people is to take access of the federal lands and to make them their own and ignore the laws protecting them for everyone. Hopefully public access of wilderness areas doesn't devolve to that. Maybe better public notification could have been done and continues to be a priority in the future.

The losers in this scenario are the employees who have the thankless job of being ridiculed and threatened for using science to enforce a law.
The forest service and national park employees have always been under varied political pressures depending on each incoming administration. The fake news propaganda people's real agenda is to discount the facts gathered by trained and educated scientists so that they can have their way. Well you better change the Wilderness act because it is still the law. I prefer it to be interpreted by the stewards entrusted with the job of enforcing the law, not some vigilantes who want to limit access to all.

I started backpacking in the 1960's and I have seen an amazing improvement in the wilderness experience because of the wilderness act. Population growth is putting a huge pressure on that which makes it more vital than ever. Of course adjustments have been made. Fish are no longer stocked, new trails are unheard of, and sometimes something like sitting around a campfire like we all used to enjoy is no longer sustainable. Just because my grandpappy did it doesn't make it right.

The Wilderness Act of 1964


Public Law 88-577 (16 U.S.C. 1131-1136)
88th Congress, Second Session
September 3, 1964
(As amended)
Download the Wilderness Act (PDF)


AN ACT
To establish a National Wilderness Preservation System for the permanent good of the whole people, and for other purposes.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SHORT TITLE
SECTION 1. This Act may be cited as the "Wilderness Act".

WILDERNESS SYSTEM ESTABLISHED STATEMENT OF POLICY
SECTION 2. (a) In order to assure that an increasing population, accompanied by expanding settlement and growing mechanization, does not occupy and modify all areas within the United States and its possessions, leaving no lands designated for preservation and protection in their natural condition, it is hereby declared to be the policy of the Congress to secure for the American people of present and future generations the benefits of an enduring resource of wilderness. For this purpose there is hereby established a National Wilderness Preservation System to be composed of federally owned areas designated by Congress as "wilderness areas", and these shall be administered for the use and enjoyment of the American people in such manner as will leave them unimpaired for future use and enjoyment as wilderness, and so as to provide for the protection of these areas, the preservation of their wilderness character, and for the gathering and dissemination of information regarding their use and enjoyment as wilderness; and no Federal lands shall be designated as "wilderness areas" except as provided for in this Act or by a subsequent Act.

(b) The inclusion of an area in the National Wilderness Preservation System notwithstanding, the area shall continue to be managed by the Department and agency having jurisdiction thereover immediately before its inclusion in the National Wilderness Preservation System unless otherwise provided by Act of Congress. No appropriation shall be available for the payment of expenses or salaries for the administration of the National Wilderness Preservation System as a separate unit nor shall any appropriations be available for additional personnel stated as being required solely for the purpose of managing or administering areas solely because they are included within the National Wilderness Preservation System.
DEFINITION OF WILDERNESS
(c) A wilderness, in contrast with those areas where man and his works dominate the landscape, is hereby recognized as an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain. An area of wilderness is further defined to mean in this Act an area of undeveloped Federal land retaining its primeval character and influence, without permanent improvements or human habitation, which is protected and managed so as to preserve its natural conditions and which (1) generally appears to have been affected primarily by the forces of nature, with the imprint of man's work substantially unnoticeable; (2) has outstanding opportunities for solitude or a primitive and unconfined type of recreation; (3) has at least five thousand acres of land or is of sufficient size as to make practicable its preservation and use in an unimpaired condition; and (4) may also contain ecological, geological, or other features of scientific, educational, scenic, or historical value.
NATIONAL WILDERNESS PRESERVATION SYSTEM-EXTENT OF SYSTEM
SECTION 3. (a) All areas within the national forests classified at least 30 days before the effective date of this Act by the Secretary of Agriculture or the Chief of the Forest Service as "wilderness", "wild", or "canoe" are hereby designated as wilderness areas. The Secretary of Agriculture shall–

(1) Within one year after the effective date of this Act, file a map and legal description of each wilderness area with the Interior and Insular Affairs Committees of the United States Senate and the House of Representatives, and such descriptions shall have the same force and effect as if included in this Act: Provided, however, That correction of clerical and typographical errors in such legal descriptions and maps may be made.

(2) Maintain, available to the public, records pertaining to said wilderness areas, including maps and legal descriptions, copies of regulations governing them, copies of public notices of, and reports submitted to Congress regarding pending additions, eliminations, or modifications. Maps, legal descriptions, and regulations pertaining to wilderness areas within their respective jurisdictions also shall be available to the public in the offices of regional foresters, national forest supervisors, and forest rangers.

(b) (Classification) The Secretary of Agriculture shall, within ten years after the enactment of this Act, review, as to its suitability or nonsuitability for preservation as wilderness, each area in the national forests classified on the effective date of this Act by the Secretary of Agriculture or the Chief of the Forest Service as "primitive" and report his findings to the President. (Presidential recommendation to Congress) The President shall advise the United States Senate and House of Representatives of his recommendations with respect to the designation as "wilderness" or other reclassification of each area on which review has been completed, together with maps and a definition of boundaries. Such advice shall be given with respect to not less than one-third of all the areas now classified as "primitive" within three years after the enactment of this Act, and the remaining areas within ten years after the enactment of this Act. (Congressional approval) Each recommendation of the President for designation as "wilderness" shall become effective only if so provided by an Act of Congress. Areas classified as "primitive" on the effective date of this Act shall continue to be administered under the rules and regulations affecting such areas on the effective date of this Act until Congress has determined otherwise. Any such area may be increased in size by the President at the time he submits his recommendations to the Congress by not more than five thousand acres with no more than one thousand two hundred and eighty acres of such increase in any one compact unit; if it is proposed to increase the size of any such area by more than five thousand acres or by more than one thousand two hundred and eighty acres in any one compact unit the increase in size shall not become effective until acted upon by Congress. Nothing herein contained shall limit the President in proposing, as part of his recommendations to Congress, the alteration of existing boundaries of primitive areas or recommending the addition of any contiguous area of national forest lands predominantly of wilderness value. Notwithstanding any other provisions of this Act, the Secretary of Agriculture may complete his review and delete such areas as may be necessary, but not to exceed seven thousand acres, from the southern tip of the Gore Range-Eagles Nest Primitive Area, Colorado, if the Secretary determines that such action is in the public interest.
(c) (Report to President) Within ten years after the effective date of this Act the Secretary of the Interior shall review every roadless area of five thousand contiguous acres or more in the national parks, monuments, and other units of the national park system and every such area of, and every roadless island within, the national wildlife refuges and game ranges, under his jurisdiction on the effective date of this Act and shall report to the President his recommendation as to the suitability or nonsuitability of each such area or island for preservation as wilderness. (Presidential recommendation to Congress) The President shall advise the President of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives of his recommendation with respect to the designation as wilderness of each such area or island on which review has been completed, together with a map thereof and a definition of its boundaries. Such advice shall be given with respect to not less than one-third of the areas and islands to be reviewed under this subsection within three years after enactment of this Act, not less than two-thirds within seven years of enactment of this Act, and the remainder within ten years of enactment of this Act. (Congressional approval) A recommendation of the President for designation as wilderness shall become effective only if so provided by an Act of Congress. Nothing contained herein shall, by implication or otherwise, be construed to lessen the present statutory authority of the Secretary of the Interior with respect to the maintenance of roadless areas within units of the national park system.
(d)(1) (Suitability) The Secretary of Agriculture and the Secretary of the Interior shall, prior to submitting any recommendations to the President with respect to the suitability of any area for preservation as wilderness-
(A) (Publication in Federal Register) give such public notice of the proposed action as they deem appropriate, including publication in the Federal Register and in a newspaper having general circulation in the area or areas in the vicinity of the affected land;

(B) (Hearings) hold a public hearing or hearings at a location or locations convenient to the area affected. The hearings shall be announced through such means as the respective Secretaries involved deem appropriate, including notices in the Federal Register and in newspapers of general circulation in the area: Provided, That if the lands involved are located in more than one State, at least one hearing shall be held in each State in which a portion of the land lies;

(C) at least thirty days before the date of a hearing advise the Governor of each State and the governing board of each county, or in Alaska the borough, in which the lands are located, and Federal departments and agencies concerned, and invite such officials and Federal agencies to submit their views on the proposed action at the hearing or by no later than thirty days following the date of the hearing.

(2) Any views submitted to the appropriate Secretary under the provisions of (1) of this subsection with respect to any area shall be included with any recommendations to the President and to Congress with respect to such area

(e) (Proposed modification) Any modification or adjustment of boundaries of any wilderness area shall be recommended by the appropriate Secretary after public notice of such proposal and public hearing or hearings as provided in subsection (d) of this section. The proposed modification or adjustment shall then be recommended with map and description thereof to the President. The President shall advise the United States Senate and the House of Representatives of his recommendations with respect to such modification or adjustment and such recommendations shall become effective only in the same manner as provided for in subsections (b) and (c) of this section.
USE OF WILDERNESS AREAS
SECTION 4. (a) The purposes of this Act are hereby declared to be within and supplemental to the purposes for which national forests and units of the national park and wildlife refuge systems are established and administered and--

(1) Nothing in this Act shall be deemed to be in interference with the purpose for which national forests are established as set forth in the Act of June 4, 1897 (30 Stat.11), and the Multiple-Use Sustained-Yield Act of June 12, 1960 (74 Stat. 215).

(2) Nothing in this Act shall modify the restrictions and provisions of the Shipstead-Nolan Act (Public Law 539, Seventy-first Congress, July 10, 1930; 46 Stat. 1020), the Thye-Blatnik Act (Public Law 733, Eightieth Congress, June 2, 1948; 62 Stat. 568), and the Humphrey-Thye-Blatnik-Andersen Act (Public Law 607, Eighty-fourth Congress, June 22, 1956; 70 Stat. 326), as applying to the Superior National Forest or the regulations of the Secretary of Agriculture.

(3) Nothing in this Act shall modify the statutory authority under which units of the national park system are created. Further, the designation of any area of any park, monument, or other unit of the national park system as a wilderness area pursuant to this Act shall in no manner lower the standards evolved for the use and preservation of such park, monument, or other unit of the national park system in accordance with section 100101(b)(1), chapter 1003, and sections 100751(a), 100752, 100753, and 102101 of title 54, United States Code, the statutory authority under which the area was created, or any other Act of Congress which might pertain to or affect such area, including, but not limited to, section 3(2) of the Federal Power Act (16 U.S.C. 796(2)); and chapters 3201 and 3203 of title 54, United States Code.

(b) Except as otherwise provided in this Act, each agency administering any area designated as wilderness shall be responsible for preserving the wilderness character of the area and shall so administer such area for such other purposes for which it may have been established as also to preserve its wilderness character. Except as otherwise provided in this Act, wilderness areas shall be devoted to the public purposes of recreational, scenic, scientific, educational, conservation, and historical use.
PROHIBITION OF CERTAIN USES
(c) Except as specifically provided for in this Act, and subject to existing private rights, there shall be no commercial enterprise and no permanent road within any wilderness area designated by this Act and except as necessary to meet minimum requirements for the administration of the area for the purpose of this Act (including measures required in emergencies involving the health and safety of persons within the area), there shall be no temporary road, no use of motor vehicles, motorized equipment or motorboats, no landing of aircraft, no other form of mechanical transport, and no structure or installation within any such area.
SPECIAL PROVISIONS
(d) The following special provisions are hereby made:
(1) Within wilderness areas designated by this Act the use of aircraft or motorboats, where these uses have already become established, may be permitted to continue subject to such restrictions as the Secretary of Agriculture deems desirable. In addition, such measure may be taken as may be necessary in the control of fire, insects, and diseases, subject to such conditions as the Secretary deems desirable.

(2) Nothing in this Act shall prevent within national forest wilderness areas any activity, including prospecting, for the purpose of gathering information about mineral or other resources, if such activity is carried on in a manner compatible with the preservation of the wilderness environment. Furthermore, in accordance with such program as the Secretary of the Interior shall develop and conduct in consultation with the Secretary of Agriculture, such areas shall be surveyed on a planned, recurring basis consistent with the concept of wilderness preservation by the Geological Survey and the Bureau of Mines to determine the mineral values, if any, that may be present; and the results of such surveys shall be made available to the public and submitted to the President and Congress.

(3) (Mineral leases, claims, etc) Notwithstanding any other provisions of this Act, until midnight December 31, 1983, the United States mining laws and all laws pertaining to mineral leasing shall, to the same extent as applicable prior to the effective date of this Act, extend to those national forest lands designated by this Act as "wilderness areas"; subject, however, to such reasonable regulations governing ingress and egress as may be prescribed by the Secretary of Agriculture consistent with the use of the land for mineral location and development and exploration, drilling, and production, and use of land for transmission lines, waterlines, telephone lines, or facilities necessary in exploring, drilling, production, mining, and processing operations, including where essential the use of mechanized ground or air equipment and restoration as near as practicable of the surface of the land disturbed in performing prospecting, location, and, in oil and gas leasing, discovery work, exploration, drilling, and production, as soon as they have served their purpose. Mining locations lying within the boundaries of said wilderness areas shall be held and used solely for mining or processing operations and uses reasonably incident thereto; and hereafter, subject to valid existing rights, all patents issued under the mining laws of the United States affecting national forest lands designated by this Act as wilderness areas shall convey title to the mineral deposits within the claim, together with the right to cut and use so much of the mature timber therefrom as may be needed in the extraction, removal, and beneficiation of the mineral deposits, if needed timber is not otherwise reasonably available, and if the timber is cut under sound principles of forest management as defined by the national forest rules and regulations, but each such patent shall reserve to the United States all title in or to the surface of the lands and products thereof, and no use of the surface of the claim or the resources therefrom not reasonably required for carrying on mining or prospecting shall be allowed except as otherwise expressly provided in this Act: Provided, That, unless hereafter specifically authorized, no patent within wilderness areas designated by this Act shall issue after December 31, 1983, except for the valid claims existing on or before December 31, 1983. Mining claims located after the effective date of this Act within the boundaries of wilderness areas designated by this Act shall create no rights in excess of those rights which may be patented under the provisions of this subsection. Mineral leases, permits, and licenses covering lands within national forest wilderness areas designated by this Act shall contain such reasonable stipulations as may be prescribed by the Secretary of Agriculture for the protection of the wilderness character of the land consistent with the use of the land for the purposes for which they are leased, permitted, or licensed. Subject to valid rights then existing, effective January 1, 1984, the minerals in lands designated by this Act as wilderness areas are withdrawn from all forms of appropriation under the mining laws and from disposition under all laws pertaining to mineral leasing and all amendments thereto.

(4) (Water resources and grazing) Within wilderness areas in the national forests designated by this Act, (1) the President may, within a specific area and in accordance with such regulations as he may deem desirable, authorize prospecting for water resources, the establishment and maintenance of reservoirs, water-conservation works, power projects, transmission lines, and other facilities needed in the public interest, including the road construction and maintenance essential to development and use thereof, upon his determination that such use or uses in the specific area will better serve the interests of the United States and the people thereof than will its denial; and (2) the grazing of livestock, where established prior to the effective date of this Act, shall be permitted to continue subject to such reasonable regulations as are deemed necessary by the Secretary of Agriculture.

(5) Commercial services may be performed within the wilderness areas designated by this Act to the extent necessary for activities which are proper for realizing the recreational or other wilderness purposes of the areas.

(6) Nothing in this Act shall constitute an express or implied claim or denial on the part of the Federal Government as to exemption from State water laws.

(7) Nothing in this Act shall be construed as affecting the jurisdiction or responsibilities of the several States with respect to wildlife and fish in the national forests.

STATE AND PRIVATE LANDS WITHIN WILDERNESS AREAS
SECTION 5. (a) In any case where State-owned or privately owned land is completely surrounded by national forest lands within areas designated by this Act as wilderness, such State or private owner shall be given such rights as may be necessary to assure adequate access to such State-owned or privately owned land by such State or private owner and their successors in interest, or the State-owned land or privately owned land shall be exchanged for federally owned land in the same State of approximately equal value under authorities available to the Secretary of Agriculture: (Transfers, restriction) Provided, however, That the United States shall not transfer to a State or private owner any mineral interests unless the State or private owner relinquishes or causes to be relinquished to the United States the mineral interest in the surrounded land.

(b) In any case where valid mining claims or other valid occupancies are wholly within a designated national forest wilderness area, the Secretary of Agriculture shall, by reasonable regulations consistent with the preservation of the area as wilderness, permit ingress and egress to such surrounded areas by means which have been or are being customarily enjoyed with respect to other such areas similarly situated.
(c) (Acquisition) Subject to the appropriation of funds by Congress, the Secretary of Agriculture is authorized to acquire privately owned land within the perimeter of any area designated by this Act as wilderness if (1) the owner concurs in such acquisition or (2) the acquisition is specifically authorized by Congress.
GIFTS, BEQUESTS, AND CONTRIBUTIONS
SECTION 6. (a) The Secretary of Agriculture may accept gifts or bequests of land within wilderness areas designated by this Act for preservation as wilderness. The Secretary of Agriculture may also accept gifts or bequests of land adjacent to wilderness areas designated by this Act for preservation as wilderness if he has given sixty days advance notice thereof to the President of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives. Land accepted by the Secretary of Agriculture under this section shall become part of the wilderness area involved. Regulations with regard to any such land may be in accordance with such agreements, consistent with the policy of this Act, as are made at the time of such gift, or such conditions, consistent with such policy, as may be included in, and accepted with, such bequest.

(b) The Secretary of Agriculture or the Secretary of the Interior is authorized to accept private contributions and gifts to be used to further the purposes of this Act.
ANNUAL REPORTS
SECTION 7. At the opening of each session of Congress, the Secretaries of Agriculture and Interior shall jointly report to the President for transmission to Congress on the status of the wilderness system including a list and descriptions of the areas in the system, regulations in effect, and other pertinent information, together with any recommendations they may care to make.

(Termination of Reporting Requirements)
For termination, effective May 15, 2000, of provisions of this section relating to transmission to Congress of annual report on status of wilderness system, see section 3003 of Pub. L. 104-66, as amended, set out as a note under section 1113 of Title 31, Money and Finance, and pages 48, 110, and 149 of House Document No. 103-7.

Approved September 3, 1964.

[Hobbes]

It's the law. I prefer it to be interpreted by the stewards entrusted with the job of enforcing the law, not some vigilantes who want to limit access to all.

Thank you for your well reasoned and factual reply. This is the tenor of dialogue I've been suggesting we try to maintain. By the way, you were doing well until you couldn't resist using the term "vigilante". This of course is a pejorative characterization of common citizens; no different than if I called rangers and park officials "jack booted thugs". Or, alternatively, labeling those who wish to entrust stewards with enforcing the law as "leather fetish boot licking holster sniffers".

OK, if we can both preliminarily agree to refrain from resorting to such juvenile behavior, perhaps we can knuckle down to examine the essential crux of the issue, which is, as you say "The Law." On this, I support you 100%. That is, current interpretation subject to a rigorous evaluation of supporting facts and consideration of respective circumstances. However, I should add that final adjudication lies not with the administrative agencies tasked with interpreting and implementing the law. This, of course, is entirely the purview of the judiciary, the 3rd branch of government charged with weighing competing interests and claims to the satisfaction of the aggrieved parties.

I should also add, that one of the absolute, core fundamental aspects of philosophy is that government is an artificial construct created solely to serve the People. While The Law is tantamount to this paradigm, it itself is not an absolute. As W so (in)eloquently stated "The Constitution is not a suicide pact". All law - from the Constitution to legislative laws to administrative rules & regulations - allows for exigent circumstances to dictate appropriate & measured response(s).

My position, if one cares to review the previous pages, is the '64 Act was created in an environment far removed from today. If one were to review its motivation, basis, actual word choice & contemporary meaning, one can reasonably present an alternative case to those who advocate limitations to access, use & enjoyment. The entire point of this dialogue was to hash out the pros & cons of how supporters wish to interpret the Act vs competing claims of those that believe changing times requires changes in thinking.

Perhaps naively, I thought it could be the type of discussion conducted over a few beers. Everyone has the same interests at heart, we probably only differ on approach.

[mrphil]

But what is the approach? Science? Emotional? A combination of the two? How about we throw in haves and have-nots, or maybe those that are armed vs those that aren't? Winner-take-all.

Federal lands do technically belong to the people. All the people.

You can win some of the people with facts that seem to them as irrefutable, and some with moral principles based on no more than how they feel about an issue, but you can't win overall unless there's something that appeals to everyone and gives them what they personally need out of it, be that as it may, in whatever form it takes. We can throw labels on just about everybody and everything, but it doesn't change the fact that, right or wrong in their beliefs, or in the next person's opinion, they all have a equal voice, at least in theory.

My point is: this country is made up of some people with the greatest minds in the history of mankind, and it's also made up of plenty more that don't even know what country borders Minnesota, and you better come to the table with something that makes them all happy if you want to succeed in anything.

[rightstar76]

.

[Hobbes]

But what is the approach?

IMO, the approach should be one of logic based on facts, with a twist of philosophy that incorporates the human, emotional side. Let me try and encapsulate my core thesis:

I and many other members have children around 20 years old. In 35 years, when they are approximately our age now, California will have a population in the range of 80m, the US 650m, and global population will be reaching 14b. While it is difficult, if not downright impossible to imagine such a scenario, we with 100% certainty can accurately predict that Jefferson's wise words will still ring true:

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

While I do not believe the nature of our representative republican form of government will be altered in any real meaningful way, I am wholly confident that current laws pertaining to access, use, enjoyment, maintenance and preservation of public lands will be re-considered and re-purposed. It is the natural right of those who come after us, to those that adorn themselves with the mantle of responsibility, to alter and/or abolish laws crafted and implemented in completely different eras to serve almost entirely different purposes. If, over time existing laws become unfair, unworkable and unmanageable, it is their right to seek out and implement new solutions that meet the varied needs they will certainly be confronting.

If reasonable people can reach a conclusion that the above statements are true, then the issue becomes not one of if, but of when laws, regulations and rules are codified/modified/eliminated to adapt and fit to new realities. If the essential role of good government is to serve the needs of the People, to help protect against force and fraud, and to provide for the commonweal, then it is the responsibility of those currently charged with fiduciary administration to consider the needs of not just today, but also plan in anticipation of those tomorrow.

Acting out in a reactionary manner to a set of established facts is not, in my opinion, a suitable nor responsible manner worthy of the duties and charges park and forestry management have been granted. Rather, all stakeholders, including proponents, opponents, administrative personnel and others, should carefully evaluate the underlying demand dynamics and inarguable population trend lines. By doing so, perhaps all parties can work towards crafting a progressive set of recommendations and procedures that satisfy the needs of those who will be living in an environment much different than ours is today.

We at HST have the opportunity to take a lead in this discussion, because membership contains extremely experienced subject matter experts from many different and varied backgrounds. While there may be internal disagreements - as exemplified by some of the exchanges on this very thread - suffice it to say there is (or, least I hold) a very high level of respect for all opinions and attitudes. If the issues being faced weren't difficult and contentious, they might not even be worthy of our collective time and effort.

To summarize, the only constant is change. You can either try to run and hide from change, or you can choose to turn around and confront it. By doing so, hopefully society can anticipate, prepare, control and mitigate the circumstances with which it is currently, and will be soon, facing.

[apeman45]

"My position, if one cares to review the previous pages, is the '64 Act was created in an environment far removed from today."

Hobbes - I disagree with this statement. The carrying capacity of the wilderness does not change over time. Wilderness is wilderness even if the population doubles. You are correct that the law has to be changed if there are changes to the policy. I disagree that it needs to be changed. Everyone can't do the rim to rim hike in the grand canyon, the JMT, or climb half dome. There are countless other trails and trailheads into the wilderness. Every time someone writes a book or makes a movie everyone decides they need to have a life changing experience. The good news is that many of these hikers are one time hikers or drop out. The bad news is they have a huge impact and push the boundaries of the wilderness act. I have been at Crabtree when the PCT horde comes through. I saw 100 people camped at Crabtree meadows and another 75 at Guitar Lake. Obviously the herd needs to be spread out or limited. While the great majority of through hikers are very responsible I have seen far too much camping on vegetation, drones, illegal fires, and poop everywhere. My fear for the Sierra is that we are headed for the dreaded camping only in designated areas to concentrate the degradation. Probably even have bathrooms. I don't think anyone wants that but the choice is quotas or designated camping. When will the next movie or multi media release put even more people on the trail? Wilderness doesn't change. The demand for it does.

Rightstar - I think what will happen is that traditional hikers will move to different trails while the popular trails are "sacrificed" to the bucket list people. I have no desire to hike the whole JMT again. To me it is just an access point to better places. But the impact is seen beyond the trails. Use trails and cairns are being created where previously there were none. It's hard to find a place untrammeled by man or woman. My hope is that the land managers don't cave to political pressure and do what is right to sustain wilderness. There are places in SEKI and Yosemite off trail where I would not see people. That is no longer true. In the 70's we had the 10 mile rule to get away from the crowds. Sadly I now compute that at 25 miles.

Mr Phil - If you let everyone at the table then there is no wilderness. The federal lands need to be available to all. I will always be in agreement on that. Some popular trails have to be by lottery which everyone can enter. Don't be fooled by the access of public lands for all people. That is a slick Koch brothers funded campaign to turn land over to the states for resource exploitation and puts our land in private ownership. Somehow the great GOP tax plan also included opening up oil drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife refuge. Let's hope they don't find oil in Yosemite!

[longri]

My fear for the Sierra is that we are headed for the dreaded camping only in designated areas to concentrate the degradation. Probably even have bathrooms. I don't think anyone wants that...

Hobbes has advocated for both of those in this thread.

...the choice is quotas or designated camping.

Designated camping with toilets would likely include quotas as well.

[Cross Country]

The most people I ever saw at a destination of mine was Laurel Lake. I went there for several Memorial Day weekends. If I couldn't have gotten a permit I would have gone anyway. There were never too many people for me. Few here would have agreed with this.
The quota system never did anything positive for me. It was a pain in the ass a few times.

[mrphil]

The most people I ever saw at a destination of mine was Laurel Lake. I went there for several Memorial Day weekends. If I couldn't have gotten a permit I would have gone anyway. There were never too many people for me. Few here would have agreed with this.
The quota system never did anything positive for me. It was a pain in the ass a few times.

I'm curious about what your thinking in that was? I'm not judging or attacking anything in your actions, but trying to get a better idea of what was going through your mind and maybe how you would have responded if you were told that you had no right to be there because it wasn't good for the environment or the "quality" of others' experience. How would what someone told you was right, good, and acceptable (be that on a scientific basis or other) influence what you personally believed to be right, good, and acceptable in meeting your own wants and needs?

[Cross Country]

I don't adhere to any ideology. I was a teacher. I like to learn. No one I know sees me as a selfish person. I'll write this again. There are sooo few backpackers and the wilderness is ENORMOUS. People here have an ideology about the wilderness. Your idea of me doing somthing to impact the wilderness is rediculous. That's was your ideology talking