Boy Scouts of America

[dave54]

The issue is complex with far reaching long term effects.

The Church of Latter Day Saints is a major sponsor of Scouting, and the LDS uses Scouting as its youth program. The LDS Church has previously stated they might withdraw from Scouting and form their own organization if gay leaders are forced upon them. Other churches would follow suit. This would effectively end Scouting as we know it.

The values taught in Scouting are still relevant in this world, perhaps even more so now than in generations past. I would not be too quick in dismissing Scouting as outdated.

I am more in favor in letting individual units decide. Church sponsored troops could have their own standards for leaders without impacting secular sponsored troops.

[Wandering Daisy]

My father was a scout master. My brother was an Eagle Scout. I was not allowed in because I was a girl. The Girl Scout option did not appealing to me. I started climbing with a co-ed mountaineering club when I was 16. Did more outdoor stuff than all those scouts.

[lostcoyote]

Nothing changes with people. We once had people talking about these issues with woman's rights, then different races and now gays. And some day people will have the same conversation regarding some other issue to come up along the same lines.

The only reasonable defense you can give against someone who is gay in regards to boyscouts is the organization is religious and it goes against what their religion teaches. The same way you cannot be a boyscout if your an atheist. Is it right? Nope... It's what I have always called the tyranny of religion.

funny, cuz i was in a scout troop for several years and am an atheist - LOL
of course, i never said told them.... i just wanted to go camping - which is what mist kids want to do in scouting.... hang with a group & get in the outdoors.

it's really too bad that adult ideology gets in the eay of what kids want.
adults ruin everything.

[mokelumnekid]

I'm totally with Mav on this one. I came from a rural community in central California (south of Sacramento about thirty miles) and our scouting experiences were an amazing time to learn about the back country, how to work as a team, how to respect each other and get along, how to identify the qualities of budding leadership. I got to be Eagle, maybe because of my Dad's prompting, but at all times the whole experience was about respecting others and kind of a "don't ask, don't tell" in that everyone knew that there were diverse types out there and it was no one's business to bring it up. This was also because there were an amazing diversity of ethnic types as well. My country troop had East Indian kids, Hispanic kids, poor kids, country club kids, Japanese kids, Chinese kids, Pacific Islanders- the typical California agricultural blend. My scout master and his helpers (including my Dad) were all WW II vets who believed that character trumped everything: money, race, station, etc.

Eagle award, Feb. 1968

But I think back then there was confusion about the differences between homosexuality and pedophilia. They are obviously two different things but often blurred in the public mind. Not to say there weren't problems in our little rural area: one scout leader was dismissed back then over a 'fondness' for boys and my seventh grade teacher eventually committed suicide over the fact he was about to be arrested for molestation. Point being that these things were on people's minds.

My Scoutmaster, my Dad, another kid's Dad, Hiram Meadow, Highland Ck drainage, Ebbetts Pass area, July '68

But today I think we have enough public awareness to understand these distinctions. And I'll offer an completely uninformed opinion: that the LDS does exert undue influence on the look-and-feel of Scouting these days. If I had a kid of that age I am not sure I would encourage them to seek community in Scouting, sad to say.

Those interested in speaking out may want to visit the web site: Scouts for Equality

[oldranger]

I think mk got to the heart of the matter--distinguishing between pedophillia and homosexuality--not the same. My experience when Matt was a scout (earned his Eagle) was that there were significant safeguards in effect to protect the kids. He was in a great troop and rather than exclusively "boys" whole families were frequently involved in outings. It was a much better troop than my brief experience in the 50s with well meaning but outdoor ignorant leaders. I enjoyed my time with the troop as well as many of the dads were into dutch oven cooking on the car camping outings. Did miss evening cocktails but that was a small sacrifice for the benefit. My favorite experience is when I provided gear and taught a young man a few fishing basics and he caught his first fish--nice 12" rainbow. He was so proud and excited.

Mike

[k9mark]

Hey, if ya don't like the boy scouts don't join them. They area private organization with their the own set by laws, etc. To think your gonna change that is folly most likely. The scouts are dwindling as it is and prolly wont be around much longer. But the real heart of the matter here are people trying to force their views or beliefs on each other. Good luck with that. How about just getting along with people and accepting that fact the differing of opinions.

[Troutdog 59]

We absoulutely do need to respect different views and opinions.

Forcing others to conform to your beliefs is equal to them not allowing gays in my humble opinion. They are both wrong.

Well said Sparky.

We are a diverse group and the constitution protects all of our rights to free speech, religion, etc.

The issue is complex with far reaching long term effects......The values taught in Scouting are still relevant in this world, perhaps even more so now than in generations past. I would not be too quick in dismissing Scouting as outdated........I am more in favor in letting individual units decide. Church sponsored troops could have their own standards for leaders without impacting secular sponsored troops.

Again, well said Dave. Level headed thinking without bias in my opinion.

I am not all that up on the whole issue, but wasnt it the Scouts that decided to open the doors to all? Isnt that their right to do so if they wish? Or am I incorrect about the topic? Was this forced upon them?? The only news article I saw on the subject was a reference to the Governor of Texas indicating he would not let the change happen. Isnt that forcing ones own values and beliefs on others?

[mokelumnekid]

k9mark:

The changes being discussed emerged from WITHIN the scouting organization itself. Having been a BSA for many years I regard myself as a stake holder in the conversation. No one is being "forced" to do anything. Perspectives change and evolve as people learn more about what it means to be "getting along with people and accepting that fact the differing of opinions." Scouting seeks as one of its founding principals 'fair play' and the recognition from WITHIN the organization that the rules enforced a fundamental bias motivated a lot of soul searching. This has now matured to the point of a proposed policy change. I predict that like all gender-and-sex based discriminatory practices, once they are swept aside it turns out everyone will wonder what the fuss was about anyway.

If scouting dies out, it won't be because of changes like this. It will simply reflect that the fundamental paramilitary approach (troops, patrols, uniforms, marching, salutes, rituals, etc.) is viewed by kids as an anachronism.

[k9mark]

For years now the BSA has been attacked by groups or individuals for their beliefs or by laws. Im sure this had lead to the fundamental change that is happening now be it forced or voluntary. We all have our own beliefs. But forcing our beliefs on each other is what causes more problems. Why arent groups like the KKK or BBP attacked as heavily as the BSA? Just sayin. But I digress, this board is about the outdoors, not political issues.

[rlown]

The YMCA has a program called Adventure Guides. It is a Father/Son group and requires both must participate. It is for elementary aged kids and is not nearly as structured as Boy Scouts, at least in our area. My son and I were part of a group and the activities were all decided on by the group, so in our case we did alot of hiking and a couple of backpack trips, but other groups did nothing like that - it is all what you want to make it into. It was fun for my son and I to introduce the kids (and most of the fathers) to backpacking, my son started backpacking as a toddler so he was an old hand by then.

Funny! I was a member of the Y Indian Guides in '68 (as the son). Per this article, they decided to change the name to Adventure Guides in sensitivity to the Native Americans:

Come this fall (2003), the chanting will stop. So will the drum beating, wearing of feathers and most Native American-themed activities that have defined the Y-Indian Guides Program for 76 years.
"Indian Guides" will become "Adventure Guides," "Princesses" will be "Explorers" and "tribes" are to be known as "circles," as the program's curriculum shifts to a more generalized one based on nature.
Though the YMCA's national umbrella organization first announced last fall that, out of sensitivity to Native Americans, it would drop Indian themes from its popular program teaming parents with their daughters or sons, news of the change is only now trickling to some local Y parents.

Read more: http://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Y ... z2KRA7UKGv" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I went onto Cub and then boy scouts, and never really cared about policy. We were having a good time hiking, camping and learning some great skills. I still have my little Y Indian Guide vest and my boy scout medals and trappings in a trunk in the garage somewhere.

Never really mattered as long as you were there to participate.

Russ