High Sierra Topix

I'll second Paul on two points:

First, I would recommend you go in fully knowledgeable of what options exist to get from A to B, and opt for those on-the-fly as you see how things progress. Being able to be dynamic on a route like this is important to maximize enjoyment (be it going faster and/or further, or slower and/or covering less distance, than planned).

Second, Paul's comments about altitude are spot-on. If you develop AMS on the first night, it will impact the remainder of your trip (either by forcing you to exit the wilderness, or by forcing you to descend and wait a day, or--even worse--if you choose to suffer through it, which will lead to an unknown result, the best of which would be a multi-day headache and nausea). This response has nothing to do with fitness; it is your body's response to altitude, and it differs strongly from person to person. I know that I'm quite sensitive to AMS, and knowing that, I can plan around it. Others I hike with aren't sensitive. You don't know if you or your companion are, so I'd recommend being conservative.

I'd recommend one night at 8k-9k feet, as Paul recommends. Mammoth is almost 8k and is a good option. Lower in the Owens Valley (Bishop, Independence) are not good options. Some campgrounds on roads leading into trailheads are good options.

Even assuming you do that, I'd recommend your first night on the trail to be lower than you have planned, which is 11,200 ft. I'd aim for <10,500 ft. In fact, I'd recommend that you camp in Vidette Meadow, between 9,500 ft and 10,500 ft. This is more conservative with respect to altitude, and has bear boxes: http://www.climber.org/data/BearBoxes/BC08.html

Why bear boxes? Well, my third recommendation is that you look long and hard at your bear cans and food packing. If you're going to be out for 10 nights, that's 11 days of food, but if you camp at bear boxes the first night, it means that you only need to fit 9 days of food into the cans. You ought to be able to fit 9 days into a Wild Ideas Expedition, meaning you'd require just one can each, no? There are also (according to climber.org) bear boxes at Tyndall and Wallace Creeks, so you may be looking at only 8 days of food in the cans, if you camp at one of those for the second night, instead of on top of the Bighorn Plateau.

Lastly, this is a 30,000 foot view comment and is certainly subjective, but if it were me, I'd cut the southern and western loops out, which both have you piling on the trail miles to descend quite a bit to terrain that is (in my opinion) probably a little more ho-hum than the high stuff. Rather, I'd look at more interesting cross-country routes (the Upper Kern basin offers great, easy cross-country travel, to countless lakes, peaks and passes, e.g.), and I'd focus my time in the high country. Again, very subjective.

paul wrote: ↑Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:33 am I would HIGHLY recommend - repeat, HIGHLY - arranging your schedule so that you sleep one night at altitude before you start the trip. like 8 or 9K. Athletic, fit folks with no experience at altitude are very prone to altitude problems because they have the fitness to charge ahead faster than they acclimatize, and thus dig a hole out of which you may not be able to climb, making the whole trip either unpleasant or un-doable. So you want to do all you can to avoid that, and a night spent at altitude before you start is a big help, I do it every trip if I'm going high. So spend a night high before you start, drink LOTS of water, especially the first few days - drink before you are thirsty - and go easy the first couple days. It will pay off, after a few days you will be able to take advantage of your fitness to go hard - if that's what you want to do.

Hey Paul, we had already planned spending a night at the Onion Valley TH but it didn't really make any sense to me to put a day of zero miles at the start of the map. Not only doing taking the day off allow us to acclimate, but it allows us to get an early morning start the next day and recover from a long day of travel (Charlotte to Vegas by plane, then 4 hr drive through Death Valley to Lone Pine, then getting permits and getting shuttled). I guess great minds think alike .

SSSdave wrote: ↑Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:25 am

As for your itinerary, fine if you are someone like Bob Burd. Reads like something endurance challenge enthusiasts in this era get all excited and wide eyed about while experienced backpackers just shake their head wondering to what purpose. Fine if that's your thing. The reason most of we experienced folks go to these places is to experience and enjoy such incredible earth places.

Best of luck

Hi Dave, since we decided to cut out the section that goes into Milter Basin and CW Lakes, it's allowed allowed me to plan most of the days to be within the 8-11 mile range, with a couple 4-5 mile days in between. Though the Sierras are a totally different animal than the Southern Appalachians, at home in the mountains I am used to doing 15-17 mile days with a fully loaded pack. I feel that now the distance for every day has been spread out a little more, I think it would allow to go through and enjoy the scenery while still having the challenge of hiking. Since I'd imagine you have quite a bit of experience in the Sierras, does this sound a little more forgiving than what I had originally planned?

Indeed. Have a great trip. And once in a couple days finding how well or how well not it is going, have plan Bs to say put in more miles or spend more time in areas your group would ike to.

paul wrote: ↑Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:33 am I would HIGHLY recommend - repeat, HIGHLY - arranging your schedule so that you sleep one night at altitude before you start the trip. like 8 or 9K. Athletic, fit folks with no experience at altitude are very prone to altitude problems because they have the fitness to charge ahead faster than they acclimatize, and thus dig a hole out of which you may not be able to climb, making the whole trip either unpleasant or un-doable. So you want to do all you can to avoid that, and a night spent at altitude before you start is a big help, I do it every trip if I'm going high. So spend a night high before you start, drink LOTS of water, especially the first few days - drink before you are thirsty - and go easy the first couple days. It will pay off, after a few days you will be able to take advantage of your fitness to go hard - if that's what you want to do.
Also keep in mind that, coming from the southeast you are accustomed to more humid conditions and the High Sierra is a high desert - very low humidity in August most of the time - which makes dehydration more of an issue. And since dehydration makes altitude issues worse, plenty of water is critical. That's why I said above to drink before you are thirsty, drink more than you think you need. One thing I always do it that I make sure I down a full liter in the morning before I break camp, that way I start out ahead of the game. You should be able to find plenty of water on your route, so I would expect you won't have to carry a lot in order to drink a lot. But be aware of the route ahead and the likely water sources and fill up accordingly.
As to the route, be flexible. Once you are out there, if you feel like making the miles that's great if you enjoy it. But you can always change your route while you are out there if you decide you want to slow down and soak in the majesty a little more. Always remember that anywhere you go in the High Sierra is gorgeous, you can't go wrong on where you go. Don't ever think that if you don't go to one lake or one pass you're missing out. It's all spectacular. Some spot you've never heard of will probably turn out to be your favorite.
If you choose to see more of it in less detail, rather than seeing less of it but in greater detail, up close as it were, that's your choice. Be safe and have fun.

Adding to what was said here, I’ve got a background in bike racing and a little triathlon. I’d consider myself a decent endurance athlete. The first time I went up high (Whitney MR attempt), my buddy (also a bike racer)and I drove from sea level, stayed at Horseshoe at 10K, and didn’t really hydrate. Felt like hell in the am and went charging up the North Fork trail as soon as we felt semi-ok. Got up the next am at Lower Boyscout and I was ok while he was no better. Had to give up on a trip we’d really looked forward to because we did ourselves in.

Since then, we really focus on hydrating well the day before and while hiking, constantly snacking, and going at a conversational pace. Doing that, nobody in our group of up to 8 people has ever had AMS issues. YMMV of course. We tell new people to our group if they aren’t peeing clear and often enough that it’s slightly annoying, they need to drink more.

We never have time to do it right and spend some time up high and sleeping low before going out there, so the way I explained above is the best compromise for us and seems to work. My overall conclusion is hydrate well, keep snacking, and don’t let athleticism make you push too hard.

Like everybody else has said, acclimatization affects each person differently. The suggestion about one 8000-9000 foot acclimatization day is fairly good, but it varies also. You need some altitude hit for your body to recognize that it actually needs to begin adaptation. Yet if you force it with too big of an altitude hit, your body might just go directly into AMS symptoms before it adapts. Now, just aimlessly hanging around at that elevation might work successfully, or it might not. I've found that you need to let your body know that it needs to adapt, and this is best started by a light exercise day, not a zero exercise day. For me personally, I adapt best when that day is maybe 25% of the intensity of the first real day on the trail.

Basically, your body has vascular receptors that can sense a drop in blood oxygen saturation and pressure. So, those receptors need to be stimulated on the rest day. Following that, your body will increase respiration rate, and that is the first step in short-term adaptation.

Also, after leading twenty years of group trips, I came to the conclusion that 80% of the so-called high altitude headaches were brought on from simple dehydration.

bobby49 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:47 pm Now, just aimlessly hanging around at that elevation might work successfully, or it might not. I've found that you need to let your body know that it needs to adapt, and this is best started by a light exercise day, not a zero exercise day. For me personally, I adapt best when that day is maybe 25% of the intensity of the first real day on the trail.

Does this mean doing some exercise but still staying around the 8-9k elevation range? The reason I ask is because we had considered maybe doing the 2.2 miles up to Flower Lake on the Kearsarge Pass trail but that would put us at around 10.5k elevation. It'd be nice to take a couple miles and some elevation off of the first real day of hiking, but I'm not sure how much the risk of AMS is heightened.

This looks like a great trip!

Here's a suggestion for an alternate. On Day 3 you go all the way down the Kern to 7000 feet and then on Day 4 you go all the way back up to Kaweah Gap.

When my ultrarunner buddy and I yo-yo'd the High Sierra Trail we came back from Whitney the same way as your plan, down the Kern and up the Big Arroyo:

https://jimmyjamhikingclub.wordpress.co ... ierra-trai

But on the way *to* Whitney we did a short cut over Pants Pass (class 2), which was my favorite part of the hike:



If it were me, I'd replace a lot of your trail miles with a few backcountry miles on Days 3 and 4 by heading into Kern-Kaweah basin, up over Pants Pass, and down into Nine Lakes Basin. I suspect you would save half a day in the process, and you would be sticking to pristine high country in the process.

I guess it all depends on how much you want to experience the heat at 7,000 feet and the sometimes-party-scene at Kern Hot Spring.

lockmangabriel wrote: ↑Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:42 pm

bobby49 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:47 pm Now, just aimlessly hanging around at that elevation might work successfully, or it might not. I've found that you need to let your body know that it needs to adapt, and this is best started by a light exercise day, not a zero exercise day. For me personally, I adapt best when that day is maybe 25% of the intensity of the first real day on the trail.

Does this mean doing some exercise but still staying around the 8-9k elevation range? The reason I ask is because we had considered maybe doing the 2.2 miles up to Flower Lake on the Kearsarge Pass trail but that would put us at around 10.5k elevation. It'd be nice to take a couple miles and some elevation off of the first real day of hiking, but I'm not sure how much the risk of AMS is heightened.

I'm not sure if you really understand how acclimatization works.