High Sierra Topix

After reading this article about a young man getting bit in Yosemite, I need to rethink what kind of pants I wear in the wilderness. Apparently denim can absorb up tp 60% of the venom ejected from a rattler and the amount of venom is directly proportional to how sick you will become from the bite. On my next trip, I think will be wearing the thickest rawest denim I can find. The other take away from the article is the extremely high cost of antivenom that may or may not be available in the ER upon your arrival and it may not be covered by your drug plan either.

https://www.outsideonline.com/2315436/s ... snake-bite

NOLS trains WFR and WFA students to walk the person out of the wilderness. A great many bites are not envenomated. Lightning kills more people than snakes do.

If you punch the button and a helicopter comes, the helicopter itself will be free of charge, but the EMT riding on it will come with a hefty price tag. Best to ask your medical insurance if it will cover such services before you start out on a trip. If they do not (as happens) there may be an additional rider to add to the policy for it.

I have seen a lot of snakes. Not really all that worried about a bite in California. I would be more concerned down south, in the states where coral and cottonmouth and copperheads roam. Or diamondbacks, which are def more aggressive than the Pacific Northwestern that you see in the Sierra Nevada.

I punch it for my dog. He's got better Insurance than I have.

freestone wrote: ↑Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:09 pm On my next trip, I think will be wearing the thickest rawest denim I can find.

The thick denim will work a little, because it blocks the fangs from sinking into the skin quite so far. In other words, the snake might bite all the way into your skin, and it might just get a piece of denim. If you were in snake country and if you were really concerned, rig up some ordinary knee-high gaiters with a piece of thick denim or else leather underneath the nylon. On a full-stroke snakebite, the depth of penetration is only a fraction of an inch, maybe a quarter inch. So, the denim might act as more of a shield than an absorber.

What I've heard is that quite a bit of snake bites aren't even on the feet / lower legs. Often you will get bit on the hand, etc when climbing around on rocks, etc. Something to keep in mind....

bobby49 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:10 pm

freestone wrote: ↑Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:09 pm On my next trip, I think will be wearing the thickest rawest denim I can find.

The thick denim will work a little, because it blocks the fangs from sinking into the skin quite so far. In other words, the snake might bite all the way into your skin, and it might just get a piece of denim. If you were in snake country and if you were really concerned, rig up some ordinary knee-high gaiters with a piece of thick denim or else leather underneath the nylon. On a full-stroke snakebite, the depth of penetration is only a fraction of an inch, maybe a quarter inch. So, the denim might act as more of a shield than an absorber.

According to the article denim is an absorber, up to 60% which can be significant because the amount of venom injected on the strike is directly proportional to how sick the victim will become. Older bigger snakes are much more dangerous because they can produce and store more venom than young baby rattlers. I don't think there is any way to determine if or how much venom was injected on any given strike, so any bite would have to be treated as a worst case scenario.
I think most of us hear that death by snake bite is rare but what we don't hear about are the complexities and logistics for treatment then the long term followup care that is required as a result of the bite.
I have never seen rattlers in the High Sierra but hardly ever do I go into the Los Padres without seeing multiple snakes on any given trip, I don't want to go overboard on prevention so wearing denim jeans instead of thin UL nylon pants (or shorts) could be a reasonable compromise on weight and functionality. The UL backpacking mantra has always been "cotton kills" but maybe that's overstated when in the company of rattlers.

freestone wrote: ↑Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:36 pm I don't think there is any way to determine if or how much venom was injected on any given strike, so any bite would have to be treated as a worst case scenario.
I think most of us hear that death by snake bite is rare but what we don't hear about are the complexities and logistics for treatment then the long term followup care that is required as a result of the bite.

I heard about all of this in my NOLS class, saw pictures, read case studies.

And yes, there is a way to determine how much venom was injected. If enough venom is there to have an effect you will see it. The effects will become more and more prominent as time passes. If it wasn't, you have open puncture wounds that might get infected.

I would start to slowly walk the victim out - no suction and no cutting, nothing to exacerbate the problem of the wound or concentrate the neurotoxin in the immediate area of the bite, which is actually what happens with suction devices - it concentrates and causes even more damage than it would have. If it's obvious the bite is envenomated, I would get out the PLB after finding a safe place to wait for a helicopter, in a spot where a helicopter could land.

I would do this because I was trained to do it. People make their own choices based on what they know and how panicked they are. There is literally no right or wrong choice other than what is best at the time given the circumstances. I highly recommend WFA or WFR certification to anyone who goes out a lot.

Some additional info here:

http://extramilest.com/blog/what-to-do- ... ote-trail/

A small correction on helicopter response and being charged. If it's a MediFlight, that's air ambulance and you'll be charged. If it's CHP, military, or NPS, you'll not be charged either for the helicopter or EMS at the scene. When you reach a landing zone and met by an ambulance, you'll be charged. Not sure about USFS.

CHP and MediFlight fly really heavy and the latter won't work above ~6,000 feet depending on temperature. CHP will but have to reconfigure and off-load a lot of gear.

Worth remembering that if the medic on scene decides you need MediFlight, you need MediFlight and that level of advanced care.

freestone wrote: ↑Sat Jan 05, 2019 11:36 pm

bobby49 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 05, 2019 10:10 pm

freestone wrote: ↑Sat Jan 05, 2019 4:09 pm On my next trip, I think will be wearing the thickest rawest denim I can find.

The thick denim will work a little, because it blocks the fangs from sinking into the skin quite so far. In other words, the snake might bite all the way into your skin, and it might just get a piece of denim. If you were in snake country and if you were really concerned, rig up some ordinary knee-high gaiters with a piece of thick denim or else leather underneath the nylon. On a full-stroke snakebite, the depth of penetration is only a fraction of an inch, maybe a quarter inch. So, the denim might act as more of a shield than an absorber.

According to the article denim is an absorber, up to 60% which can be significant because the amount of venom injected on the strike is directly proportional to how sick the victim will become. Older bigger snakes are much more dangerous because they can produce and store more venom than young baby rattlers. I don't think there is any way to determine if or how much venom was injected on any given strike, so any bite would have to be treated as a worst case scenario.
I think most of us hear that death by snake bite is rare but what we don't hear about are the complexities and logistics for treatment then the long term followup care that is required as a result of the bite.
I have never seen rattlers in the High Sierra but hardly ever do I go into the Los Padres without seeing multiple snakes on any given trip, I don't want to go overboard on prevention so wearing denim jeans instead of thin UL nylon pants (or shorts) could be a reasonable compromise on weight and functionality. The UL backpacking mantra has always been "cotton kills" but maybe that's overstated when in the company of rattlers.

I think that you are confusing the issue or else misinterpreting the article. Denim as an absorber might work if the venom was on top of the skin. However, it is not. Venom is injected to the tissues a fraction of an inch below the skin surface, and there is no denim working there. Venom left above the skin surface has virtually no significance. Some people feel as though venom below the skin can be squeezed out, but there is also a good possibility of squeezing it might work it deeper. Vacuum extraction might work a little, but it has to be done fairly rapidly.

My first training was that rattlesnakes never go above 6000 feet elevation in Yosemite. Then I saw one there at 6000 feet. In Sequoia-Kings I thought they went that high or slightly higher. Then I saw one at 9050 feet.