Canister Stove Fuel Consumption....

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hikin_jim
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Re: Canister Stove Fuel Consumption....

Post by hikin_jim »

longri wrote:Ha! I've got an old backpacking fry pan that looks a lot like that. It freaked me out a little until I did some reading. Teflon and other versions of PTFE non-stick coatings aren't toxic. If you eat a little bit it's not something to worry about. It might even help things slide out a little easier in the morning. :-)
Yeah, some of my gear is pretty, er, used.
longri wrote:That egg dish does look tasty. It probably doesn't require a lot of fuel to cook either. What kind of instant eggs did you use?
It's actually pretty easy to prepare. I bring olive oil in a little tiny nalgene. I put the Nalgene in a zip lock. Oil tends to get on things even with something "bombproof" like a Nalgene. I grease the pan with the olive oil, add all the ingredients, put the heat on low and cover. I have to check it once or twice, but in five or six minutes (cook time, not including prep time), out it comes.

In this case I used real eggs carried in a cardboard egg carton. I just burned the carton after using the eggs. I just carried the eggs one day. We ate everything the first night.

That said "Ova Easy" is supposed to be pretty good.

HJ
Backpacking stove reviews and information: Adventures In Stoving
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longri
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Re: Canister Stove Fuel Consumption....

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hikin_jim wrote:In this case I used real eggs carried in a cardboard egg carton.
Nice!
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longri
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Re: Canister Stove Fuel Consumption....

Post by longri »

AlmostThere wrote:it would be hard to claim it's at 50% efficiency without some gold standard to go by.
Gold standard? It's just a definition:
Net heat absorbed by the water / heat of fuel combustion.

It isn't precise because we don't know the exact amount of water or temperature rise, but it's possible to come up with a reasonable estimate.

5 cups/day * 5.5 days = 27.5 cups = 6.5 kg of water
I'm taking boiling to mean raising the water 80°C which of course can vary.
So heat absorbed is 80°C * 4.2 kJ/kg°C * 6.5 kg = 2180 kJ.
100g of fuel produces 4600 kJ of energy when it is combusted.

So 2180/4600 = 47%. I rounded up to 50% because it is a rough estimate.

When I've measured the quantities carefully at home my stove achieved an efficiency of 55-60%. In the mountains I'm pretty sure it's less and when I've gone through the above exercise with my own usage I've found it tends to be around 50%, give or take.

AlmostThere wrote:I only know that optimus gets me about half the use that I get with the main brand canisters. that isn't even worth the $.50 price difference. It may be a variance in the valve on the can, or it could easily be that there something in the can itself polluting the fuel. Cheaper brands of fuel are not as clean as the main brands. Sarah kirkconnel has had this experience with cheap fuel before and blogged about it.
Half as much? That's surprising. I don't know who Sarah Kirkconnel is but I'd be curious to read her blog on the subject.

Do you have a link?
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hikin_jim
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Re: Canister Stove Fuel Consumption....

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In terms of cold weather performance, Optimus wouldn't be the best. But in weather above something like 50°F, it shouldn't make an appreciable difference. As I recall the kCal/mol values are fairly similar. I don't think you'd be able to tell one fuel from another without lab equipment. Maybe you got a bad batch? It does happen.

Take a look at this photo.
Image

The molding markings on all of the caps of those canisters are identical. They're all made in Korea. Word on the street is that all the stove companies (Optimus, MSR, Brunton, Snow Peak, Jetboil, and Primus) have their canisters made by the same company in Korea. Yeah the canister colors and the cap colors are different, but the dimensions and the caps are all the same.

A Primus cap. Same markings.
Image

Snow Peak used to make theirs in Japan, but a couple of years ago they gave in and outsourced to Korea. I think economies of scale must be at work here. Old Snow Peak canister left. New on on the right. Same markings.
Image

The only hold out that I know of is Coleman. Coleman makes theirs in France presumably because of the Camping Gaz facilities there (recall that Camping Gaz of France was bought out by Coleman who were in turn bought by Jardin).

It doesn't make sense that there would be much difference with an Optimus canister (except maybe in temps below 50°F). I'm not doubting your experience. I just don't see why Optimus would be so different.

HJ
Backpacking stove reviews and information: Adventures In Stoving
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AlmostThere
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Re: Canister Stove Fuel Consumption....

Post by AlmostThere »

It's a bummer, too. I prefer to shop at the local store rather than REI - all they carry anymore is Optimus. But I monitor the weight of canisters - I can get three weekends out of a small canister, but one and a half if it's Optimus.

I might be able to get more out of it with one of my Primus stoves (heat exchangers make the boil more efficient) but the weight and bulk offset keeps me going back to the little stove that fits in the GSI Minimalist with the canister.
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hikin_jim
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Re: Canister Stove Fuel Consumption....

Post by hikin_jim »

Weird. And it's happening consistently? Maybe I'll have to pick up some Optimus canisters and weigh them. Unless they're putting something inert in there, the heat content should be about the same as other canisters. In fact, they should be slightly better in terms of longevity than Jetboil brand.

I typically just get isobutane/propane mixes, frequently Snow Peak (which is usually more reasonably priced) or MSR. That way I don't have to worry about whether or not a given canister will perform well in cold weather. If all my canisters are isobutane, then I don't have to worry about it so long as I bring a fresh canister on each trip.

That said, there is a shop on the way home from where I used to work that carries Primus for a reasonable price. Primus is 25 % propane, 25 % isobutane, and 50 % butane per their website. Not the best for cold, but it'll do for most purposes, particularly if you stay above 40°F or always use a fresh canister.

HJ
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Re: Canister Stove Fuel Consumption....

Post by Wandering Daisy »

Do you think they will ever have a re-fillable canister? I feel like an environmental Neanderthal every time I use a canister. I cannot believe how many empties I collect! I use the old ones for car camping and even at that, have two boxes full of nearly used canisters. I am almost ready to go back to white gas because of this.
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longri
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Re: Canister Stove Fuel Consumption....

Post by longri »

People already refill canisters. But an officially sanctioned refillable version isn't too likely in the near future.

I don't know about you, Daisy, but we fill our blue recycling bin every week with glass bottles, plastic of all types, aluminum cans, various other types of metals and lots and lots of paper products. When I toss one or two empty and punctured gas canisters into the bin it's just a drop in the bucket. It's on par with worrying about the ounces of butane I burn camping when I'm using gallons of gasoline to get to the trailhead.
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AlmostThere
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Re: Canister Stove Fuel Consumption....

Post by AlmostThere »

I got one of the jetboil punch tools and recycle. i may go back to alcohol for the winter, now that bans are being lifted.


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longri
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Re: Canister Stove Fuel Consumption....

Post by longri »

I use a can opener, the old style punch type. I lever off of the lip on top which takes some effort since it isn't quite the right shape for that, but I usually have a church key around. Alternatives include a hammer and a nail. In the backcountry I sometimes use a big rock to squash them flat. An ice tool would probably work pretty well too. Or a sledge hammer if you have some frustration in your life.

There's this idea that a spark while puncturing the canister could ignite the trace amount of fuel vapor inside. I don't worry.
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