The Case for PLBs

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AlmostThere
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Re: The Case for PLBs

Post by AlmostThere »

caddis wrote:Sounds like an ass chewing is what is needed. Maybe you should print that last post and make them read it. :thumbsup:
Sounds like you missed the real problem... an ass chewing is just what you can't do. If someone thinks they know what they are doing, all that accomplishes is to put them on the defense immediately. And the consequence then becomes a defensive person who truly will have to learn the hard way.

This is one of those things - adults like to be experts and in charge, because they are. How would you like it if I came over and demanded that you change the way you organized your furniture based on my personal fung shui? That's about what it amounts to, without the underlying reasons you are telling them not to do things like avoiding that lovely flat spot 10 feet from the river. And then they have to buy into the underlying reasons, and not be all "you tree hugger jerks are killjoys. this is the perfect spot." Might as well try to get Catholics to be Unitarians.
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Re: The Case for PLBs

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Then stop teaching them. Let them learn like the rest of us: trial and error, hard work, and research.

You can't fight the dumb
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Re: The Case for PLBs

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caddis wrote:Then stop teaching them. Let them learn like the rest of us: trial and error, hard work, and research.

You can't fight the dumb
I teach those who sign up for the class. It pays me a little for the trouble. If they pay me to throw things at them I do that - if it sticks or not is not my problem.

The rest do what they do and learn from it. Or not.

I am dealing with two distinct groups of people - I organize trips for a very large hiking group, and I teach a class. You can't handle the two the same. It ain't professional to NOT TEACH the class. And I NEVER teach the hiking group directly - if they learn by osmosis that's out of my control, but ask any civil attorney and they will tell you - telling people what to do can end badly, because you are somewhat responsible for the outcome. How responsible comes out in the wash after the family of the deceased is done with you in court.
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Re: The Case for PLBs

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Not teaching is NOT the answer. There is only a percentage that pay for classwork and don't learn or attempt to learn. If 10 people show up for class, perhaps 1 will pay no attention because they are "more knowledgeable than thou", 1 will be asleep, a couple will just not get it, a couple will get it, but not incorporate their learning in their actions, AND a couple will soak up the information like a sponge and utilize it. This is typical for any teaching situation. It is those last two that keep teachers teaching. If you can reach one or two out of 10, it is worthwhile.

That's not to say that only 2 will learn anything. 2 will have learned nothing, a few will have the information, but only start utilizing it here and there through the school of hard knocks (they'll know better next time) and a few will be better prepared from the git go and avoid much of the misery the school of hard knocks doles out.

Rashneesh once said something like "I have a dream (a meditative awakening of a sort) and I come back from that dream, and 90% of that is lost. Then I put it into words, and 90% of THAT is lost. Then you hear it, and 90% of THAT is lost. So why do I talk?

Because that last little bit can ignite a spark in you, and that spark can be fanned into a flame that will burn inside you.
If you don't know where you're going, then any path will get you there.
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Re: The Case for PLBs

Post by Wandering Daisy »

The PLB's are a supplemental and appropriate (if desired) for those who are already experienced. But they do enable the inexperienced to go where they should not (same as GPS technology). I think one answer would be to require rescue insurance. I think we expect too much of our volunteer mountain rescue people. At some point, there will be more demand than supply of rescue personnel time.

I taught at NOLS for seven years. We put people in the field first night and then taught as we slowly ambled through the wilderness. This is a really good way to teach, but not something most private groups can do. We outfitted everyone, so no dealing with inadequate equipment. We absolutely dictated what was in everyone's pack. People who came on our courses "signed on" to the program. We also had 30 days- which is what it really takes to get from "newbie" to fully "experienced". And the courses were specifically to teach. That meant that many days we traveled two miles, stopping about every 10 minutes to take advantage of a "teaching moment". The goal was not to get anywhere.

Leading private trips is like herding cats. I personally found it frustrating enough that I quit doing it. Many want to be led to a destination but do not want to follow any group rules. I admire anyone who leads or teaches the general public on private trips.

I am a bit anti-technology with backpacking. Too much technology makes people think that they can learn skills by pushing buttons and skip the hard work of learning the basics. I had an interesting experience this summer in Wyoming. Now with Google Earth you can "fly" a route and my think you really know what you are getting into. Google Earth has errors. They show a "trail" up Pixley Creek (someone simply made a GPS point-to-point file of this difficult off-trail route and put it on the internet). We were camped at the lower end of the route and two young fellows came through our camp. They had planned their trip based on a trail being there. They stumbled into our camp. Instead of real maps the used their I-phone which did not have sufficient detail. You cannot get lost in that canyon but it is quite similar to Enchanted Gorge. They were experienced enough, thank goodness, to handle the route, but their planned three days was totally insufficient time. This was an epic waiting to happen. Since their car was gone from the parking lot when we got back from our longer trip, I assume they got out.
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Re: The Case for PLBs

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Wandering Daisy wrote:I think one answer would be to require rescue insurance.
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
Leading private trips is like herding cats.


Note to self; steal this simile for future use.
If you don't know where you're going, then any path will get you there.
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The Case for PLBs

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What I do recommend is for people to talk to their medical insurance, about coverage they can add to handle any backcountry intervention. The rescue itself is not going to rack up a charge, at least not in California - search and rescue is never something you will be charged for. A medivac is an entirely different matter.

I do organize trips and I also tell people they have one chance to be someone I will hike with again. My way or good bye, do your own thing far away from me. I refuse to be associated with people who are deliberately and flagrantly breaking rules and being poor caretakers of the wilderness they pretend to care about. I also refuse to backpack with folks who make poor teammates - if you leave me to hike out to your car while we are dealing with someone who is vomiting in the trail, dehydrated, and needs assistance - you can F off and forget it, don't even try to sign up for my outings. And yes - that did happen.
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Re: The Case for PLBs

Post by caddis »

AlmostThere wrote:
caddis wrote:Then stop teaching them. Let them learn like the rest of us: trial and error, hard work, and research.

You can't fight the dumb
I teach those who sign up for the class. It pays me a little for the trouble. If they pay me to throw things at them I do that - if it sticks or not is not my problem.

The rest do what they do and learn from it. Or not.

I am dealing with two distinct groups of people - I organize trips for a very large hiking group, and I teach a class. You can't handle the two the same. It ain't professional to NOT TEACH the class. And I NEVER teach the hiking group directly - if they learn by osmosis that's out of my control, but ask any civil attorney and they will tell you - telling people what to do can end badly, because you are somewhat responsible for the outcome. How responsible comes out in the wash after the family of the deceased is done with you in court.

Here is a question that has come to mind as I've read your posts (Sorry for taking this off topic). I don't have an answer but I think it would make an interesting campfire discussion:

Do you think the backpacking community benefits from novice backpacking classes?

Those that really want to learn can learn anything they want with research and experience (Start small and expand your trips). Will teaching them give some of them a false sense of security?

Those that will do their own thing will not learn from a class anyways. They will forever pose a threat to themselves and others so why assist them?
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Re: The Case for PLBs

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caddis wrote:
AlmostThere wrote:
caddis wrote:Then stop teaching them. Let them learn like the rest of us: trial and error, hard work, and research.

You can't fight the dumb
I teach those who sign up for the class. It pays me a little for the trouble. If they pay me to throw things at them I do that - if it sticks or not is not my problem.

The rest do what they do and learn from it. Or not.

I am dealing with two distinct groups of people - I organize trips for a very large hiking group, and I teach a class. You can't handle the two the same. It ain't professional to NOT TEACH the class. And I NEVER teach the hiking group directly - if they learn by osmosis that's out of my control, but ask any civil attorney and they will tell you - telling people what to do can end badly, because you are somewhat responsible for the outcome. How responsible comes out in the wash after the family of the deceased is done with you in court.

Here is a question that has come to mind as I've read your posts (Sorry for taking this off topic). I don't have an answer but I think it would make an interesting campfire discussion:

Do you think the backpacking community benefits from novice backpacking classes?

Those that really want to learn can learn anything they want with research and experience (Start small and expand your trips). Will teaching them give some of them a false sense of security?

Those that will do their own thing will not learn from a class anyways. They will forever pose a threat to themselves and others so why assist them?
not sure why you ask when it's clear what your bias is. You teach the people who are receptive. Unless somebody wants to learn, they won't sign up for a class in the first place. nothing I do or say in class is anything differing from the many backpacking books there are. Leave no trace I get directly from their website.

from the reviews I get, the class is fine. it answers their questions of how to get going. not everyone Who wants to backpack knows a thing about how to research. Usually by the day of the trip the ones who are not going to care about what I say have dropped off... attorneys with unmedicated ADHD are going to have limited benefit, but he was more than game to come along and have fun.


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caddis
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Re: The Case for PLBs

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AlmostThere wrote:not sure why you ask when it's clear what your bias is.
because I thought it would make an interesting discussion
You teach the people who are receptive.
I must have missed something, I thought you made it clear that not everyone was perceptive or receptive
Unless somebody wants to learn, they won't sign up for a class in the first place.
That's supposition and it really doesn't address my question
nothing I do or say in class is anything differing from the many backpacking books there are. Leave no trace I get directly from their website.
Yes, but there is no substitute for personal experience...can you really learn how to backpack from a class?

You are doing the prep work and guiding...is everyone prepared to go it alone after the go out with you?

I'm not criticizing you or your teaching I'm wondering if we have made things too easy for people. their gear is stronger and lighter, easier to carry. Their food is prepared, simply add water. Map, compass, a general sense of direction?...no problem, we have gps.
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