What is an illegal fire ring?

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RoguePhotonic
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Re: What is an illegal fire ring?

Post by RoguePhotonic »

The only fire rings I break up are ones clearly far above the fire line. Normally in heavier traveled areas.

I have built plenty of fire rings myself which I guess is not allowed but it's a mixed sort of law. I understand that they don't want a ton of rings all over which was probably the worst I had seen in French Canyon where you would climb to Merriam Lake. For hundreds of yards on both sides of the trail I found fire rings all of which were not even useable. Most of the camps hardly had a place to lay your body. But on the other hand you get examples of how I stayed at Upper Tent Meadow on the Copper Creek Trail. There is only a couple places to camp there and the largest and most functional had no fire pit and clearly had signs that several had been broken up in the past. Being at 8600 feet I saw no reason I couldn't have a fire there so I made a new pit. Illegal? I guess... but where does that grey area fall? I just use my own judgement. I am pretty good at locating existing camp sites and once I feel I have exhausted the possibility of finding one I establish a new site and normally put allot of thought into where I will place a fire ring. Something I wish more people would do.
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Re: What is an illegal fire ring?

Post by SSSdave »

I haven't an issue with firerings in legal areas or those same rings during fire closures. But have been publicly complaining for years about those who build fires and firerings in illegal areas. Most who do so are well aware they are doing something illegal. And every summer I see lots of these illegal firerings in timberline areas and break up many.

The more obvious illegal fires are being made by the inconsiderate evening bonfire types at our beautiful timberline lakes. Their groups seem to spend quite a bit of time in their surrounding local campsite areas carrying and dragging all loose large wood back to their camps. And of course they are ALWAYS going to lug a bunch of big rocks from the surrounding areas in order to build up some huge stone structure. Often it is one of those oven type fireplaces up against some large boulder. At beautiful Anne Lake in the Silver Divide I found three of them and that took quite a bit of time to tear them all apart. At one on a bench above the lake, I carried and dragged most of the wood 30 feet to a 15 foot cliff where I tossed them all into the lake where the breeze quickly sailed them out to the middle.

The perpetrators choose to do so mainly because enforcement in the backcountry particularly in NF wilderness is so sparse and because the majority of wilderness users if they see a group ignoring policy are unlikely to say anything. The latter issue is where I have tried to nudge others as peers to be more active. There are always going to be few backcountry rangers performing enforcement even if they are increased to levels we used to see before Reagan laid most off in the 1980s. Because of that it is important for at least some of we enthusiasts to at least in some small way, confront those who feel they can do whatever they want. The same perpetrators are of course likely to be making campsites too close to water sources, washing their cooking utensils using soap directly at lakeshores, and generally ignoring rules as though they are above the rest of us.

Some people mainly because they are so emotional, do not have the interpersonal skills to confront people anywhere including those at their workplace or elsewhere in their everyday lives. But some of us who can do so calmly and intelligently, can and I hope that includes some reading this. The usual response I get is one of embarrassment. And don't tell them not to make a fire but rather let them do so on their own after considering what I said about what they are doing. The next time they are in the same situation they are going to have to wonder if some other backpacker out there might confront them likewise.
Last edited by SSSdave on Thu Jan 02, 2014 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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rlown
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Re: What is an illegal fire ring?

Post by rlown »

SSSdave wrote:
Maybe people mainly because they are so emotional, do not have the interpersonal skills to confront people anywhere including those at their workplace or elsewhere in their everyday lives. But some of us who can do so calmly and intelligently, can and I hope that includes some reading this.
Maybe it's because we don't want to get shot. At least with the 20 something group, i knew what i was walking into. The girl was the fire tender. And I saw them during the day before, and talked to them.

You don't always know what you're walking into. Even the calm and intelligent get hurt doing the right thing.
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Re: What is an illegal fire ring?

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[quote="Maybe it's because we don't want to get shot. At least with the 20 something group, i knew what i was walking into. The girl was the fire tender. And I saw them during the day before, and talked to them. You don't always know what you're walking into. Even the calm and intelligent get hurt doing the right thing.[/quote]

Quite agreed. One needs to have a good sense of who where and when confronting others not only in the backcountry but also in our daily lives. Only a fool would try to tell something to a much larger person in a group talking in the evening dim parking lot of some west Oakland bar. Even something tame like "I notice your car is missing licence plates". But the same person confronted at midday inside the SF Giants AT&T park during a ballgame is likely to smile when one asks them if they can use the empty seat next to them for a friend as long as no one comes. In the backcountry, I would not tend to confront a group of loud rowdy young twentysomething males but most others would in some way even if I would expect they are not going to like it.

A few years ago at the Darwin Canyon lakes in Kings Canyon National Park, two os us set up camp down under some whitebark pines. A couple of other small groups set up camps within the area. Later in the afternoon some obvious peak bagger with gear set up his tent a dozen feet from the same lake edge we were at probably because of the view. He was a tall lean 6 footer plus maybe 30 years. I'm a short thin 66" guy of 140#. I came by carrying my 4x5 on its tall tripod and from a distance of several dozen feet found him standing about near his tent. In my usual strong though calm voice I said, there are some legal campsites, (pointing to an area of whitebarks) over there. Then continued walking where I was going. He was obviously annoyed I had said anything but my walking away didn't give him the opportunity to say anything. A half hour later he was still there but two hours later was he was gone from the area. I figure he probably kept thinking about it stewing then pissed off got up and moved but didn't move far, maybe setting up camp likewise illegally at one of the other lakes. But the confrontation would over time sink in making him wonder about others talking to him about what was likely a common in your face I can do whatever I want to attitude.
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Re: What is an illegal fire ring?

Post by John Dittli »

Fire rings for the most part are pretty silly. If one is building a fire in an appropriate location (no combustibles within several feet), a ring of rocks serves no purpose unless you bring a cooking grill and I was thinking those days were over, but maybe they're not? Though as someone mentioned, it does establish a semi-permanent location for future fires.

And that may be exactly why they are being removed; if there is no ring, I suppose many people will be less apt to have a fire, which may be the ultimate goal. But this is purely speculation. I didn't realize the general public was removing well established, legal fire rings, that is a lot of dirty work.

Even as an ex-ranger, I still regularly break down and clean up illegal fire rings. In some cases (though rarely) I'll remove legal fire rings in remote locations where the fire ring itself is an obvious one time use and is the only sign or impact in the area.

While a fire maybe "legal" in a certain area, it's a shame to establish new rings, especially in remote locations. It's so easy to have a fire, yet leave the area with no sign.
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Jimr
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Re: What is an illegal fire ring?

Post by Jimr »

I've busted up a few, but not many. Usually when I'm camping at a spot where there are too many. One place had 4 rings; two larger and two smaller. I broke up the two smaller ones and left the two larger ones that were well established. The place only really needed one, but the larger ones would have taken far too much effort to eradicate, so I opted to leave them remove the two I could leave without a trace.

I ran across a few in Tehipite Valley that were unusable, overgrown and near the river, but they looked to be about 100 years old, so I considered them historical and left them alone.

I've seen many in the high country that are obviously illegal, but if they are at a hardened site, I normally leave them.
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RoguePhotonic
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Re: What is an illegal fire ring?

Post by RoguePhotonic »

I've actually seen a few rings that show no signs of ever being used. Like someone just built it for fun.
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Re: What is an illegal fire ring?

Post by rlown »

RoguePhotonic wrote:I've actually seen a few rings that show no signs of ever being used. Like someone just built it for fun.
Yeah.. that is Sasquatch. He doesn't know about fire but he knows about rocks. Lures people into a camp by offering up a ring, and has a stockpile of stones just out of camera range to throw near you when you camp there. :lol:
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Re: What is an illegal fire ring?

Post by rlown »

did you mean Jimr? And we are all kind of the fire ring "cops" if we care to be. If they are in an illegal area, they should go, based on whatever cop system you believe in.
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Re: What is an illegal fire ring?

Post by dave54 »

I have seen campsites with so many rings it looks like a battlefield with shell craters all over. Some only a few feet away from each other! Why didn't the builders just use the existing ring instead of building new???? I dunno, maybe the rocks were not arranged feng shui or something... :confused:

In those case I may destroy all but one -- leave the safest one on the most durable site.

I rarely have a fire, but when I do I search the fire ring first. Who knows what is buried in the ashes? I once found a .30 cartridge buried in the ash carefully arranged pointing directly at a log where someone would be sitting. Also found partially filled butane cartridges buried in the ash just waiting for someone to build a fire. There are some sick sadistic sociopaths in the backcountry.
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