What is an illegal fire ring?

[rlown]

Given some of the things I've seen going on in other forums, and even here in the past, What makes a fire ring illegal?

The givens:

above the elevation limit set in the regulations.
too close to a lake or stream.
newly formed rings.. What does "new" mean? THIS REALLY needs definition.

anything else?

I've busted up a few. Not a fan of silly rings and try and toss the rocks either into a lake or more than 20 yds away from site. Then cover the ashes. not much you can do with them. Also, on my last trip, there was leftover trash (unburned in the pit; TP mostly). Although it was an "established" campsite, it's pretty disgusting someone cant finish the job.

[markskor]

yup... I was astounded by the number of people still building fires after the closures this summer!

Building fire rings...destroying rings...
Seriously conflicted here, mostly about those who think they are doing good by taking upon themselves to destroy all fire rings found. Sure, when the fire closure edict came down last season, there was no valid reason to construct a ring, much less build a fire. We all saw what happened with the Yosemite Rim fire - an illegal fire and 400 square miles charred.

However, when fires are allowed, where/when legal (9,600 foot rule, far enough from the trail and water, etc), why destroy all the rings found? Destination lakes (generally off-trail and miles in) usually have only a few adequate camp sites available to camp at - flat, big enough, far enough away from trails, etc, etc and coincidentally, many hikers in the past have hiked/visited there previously, enjoyed fires there (when allowed), and countless more will undoubtedly visit this lake again in the future.

Recently, many have taken up an agenda of destroying all rings found anywhere Sierra, even those rings which had been deemed "legal" and erected countless years before. Surprisingly, Yosemite even asks for volunteers to tear down fire rings. Next season, when new visitors arrive again at the same destination lake, the old ring is now gone - courtesy of some do-gooder who disassembled it. Invariably, a new ring will be erected there again...probably close to the old ring...and so it goes. An ash scar, remnants from the old ring, ostentatiously standing out and a the new ring, probably soon to be broken down again too - (BTW, How long does it take for nature to repair the ashes?). Thus all will contribute more ashes to the site, essentially expanding the site's trash footprint.

I would rather the original ring be left alone, rather than the countless destroyings and rebuildings.

So, here is my question - If it is illegal to construct new fire rings anywhere Sierra, but the site in question has always held a ring, is it legal to re-construct another ring where one has stood for decades? Why not leave the well-established rings alone?

[Wandering Daisy]

A fire ring simply points out where a fire has been located in the past. The rock ring is really not needed. My gripe is people who do not fully burn their fires leaving an ever-growing pile of ashes. I do remove ashes (burry or scatter thinly out of view) if needed but I would not take out the fire ring. I agree that if you "clean up" the area, another ring would simply be built. As for ashes, if ashes are never cleaned out, the fire pit grows bigger and bigger and does become an eye sore. I do get really upset when unburned garbage is left in the pits.

Campfires have their place in a wilderness. Lots of backpackers do not use them, but that does not make campfires, per se, a bad thing. There is a time and place. I would rather see one clean established campsite with a fire ring, than have everyone build a new fire pit because the old one is gone. The public needs to be educated on proper campfires- no bonfires, use only on the ground wood, put them totally out, leave no garbage, and do not use during restricted times of fire danger. If you are going to have a campfire, you need to be sure you can build a good fire (not the smoldering smoky kind) and know all the aspects of campfire safety. There are few places that the public can learn these skills anymore, with all the extremists preaching no fires at all.

Add to the list of "illegal", 1) the campfire that is left smoldering, not fully extinguished, 2) the one with garbage, and 3) the one that is built in a non-fire-safe location (such as under the limbs of a big tree). I would also add that a campsite with torn, mangled tree limbs due to poor wood gathering, should also be deemed "illegal".

[Rockchucker]

My grandpa always said its best to build an Indian fire, meaning only enough to get you by and when your done no one can tell a fire has been there for a hundred years. Small and discreet.

[oldranger]

I like Rockchucker's grandpa's style. The issue is interesting. No longer a ranger I no longer remove even illegal fire rings. Primarily because I don't carry the tools to do it properly in a reasonable time. Gotta have at least a full size shovel to remove all ashes down to dirt if the fire ring is in a flat clearing. Just hate the thought of someone pitching their tent or sitting down on ashes. If someone built a fire against a large rock removing the fire ring and ashes without removing the black is just inviting another fire ring. It is possible to remove the black but few of us carry oven cleaner and wire brushes. My big gripe is multiple fire rings at a single site.

So you get to a site with a legal fire ring but it is overflowing with ashes. how do you deal with the ashes? 1. Sort thru ashes and remove glass, foil, and other non burnable objects and put these into your trash bag. 2. Use a pan to remove ashes. 3. Two places I have successfully disposed of ashes: dense brush and right in the middle of a trail (it is amazing how rapidly ashes disappear if spread thinly down the trail. Please don't simply move ashes on to a pile 2 feet from the fire ring.

Final thought. Removing the last fire ring from a site where a fire is legal is wrong, especially when it is illegal to build a new fire ring. That is management that is likely to result in people violating regs.

Mike

[freestone]

If it's ugly, it's illegal.

[Wandering Daisy]

Problem with the "ugly" criteria, is that one person's "ugly" is another's "beautiful". There are some established campsites that I have to admit are quite ingeniously built and yes, "beautiful". I also have super environmentalist friends, to whom, ANY fire ring is "ugly" because they simply abhor fires in the first place, and any remaining signs of a campfire offends their sensibilities.

On the other hand, like is said about pornography, you know what it is when you see it. There are some pretty universal attributes of an ugly campfire ring. I think the most disgusting campfire ring I ever saw was one where a hunter left a decaying deer hide right there in the fire pit along with tin cans, beer bottles and horse poo all over the campsite.

I do not see myself as the self-appointed moral cop of the wilderness. I may report to authorities the most ugly or what I see as illegal messes I come across, and definitely will stop to fully put out an abandoned fire, but that is about as far as I go.

[oldranger]

Daisy beat me to answering. The only thing that I would hope (undoubtedly a futile hope) is that there is consensus that anything other than ashes in a fire ring is ugly, not to mention illegal.

Mike

[rlown]

agreed. I never mind cleaning out clean ash from a legal ring. Yes, the 2 quart pot works well for that. If it's got other unburned "trinkets" in it, it does tick me off.

I didn't bust up a completely illegal fire ring 2 years ago on the shore of Paris on the East side of the lake. It was occupied and they were burning at 9pm above 11k. Yet, I smelled smoke where it was not supposed to be, so i meandered over. Almost to the second i said, "hey, no fires allowed" they doused it. They didn't think it would hurt given it was downed wood.

It was a nice visit with the 20 somethings anyway.

[LMBSGV]

I do not see myself as the self-appointed moral cop of the wilderness. I may report to authorities the most ugly or what I see as illegal messes I come across, and definitely will stop to fully put out an abandoned fire, but that is about as far as I go.

Exactly. Unfortunately, one thing I've noticed over the last decade is that it seems to be becoming more and more either people who don't think the rules apply to them or "self-appointed moral cop of the wilderness."