Why not Clipping to Half-Dome Cables

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John Dittli
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Re: Why not Clipping to Half-Dome Cables

Post by John Dittli »

longri wrote:
John Dittli wrote:Here I thought this thread was about "clipping the cables", preferably where they attach to the rock, once and for all. This would solve the entire issue(s)! ;)
It would at that!

But I've been up Half Dome by many ways numerous times. I've had my share of it. I think it would be selfish of me to now deny that adventure to many people. I've seen people stoked to be going up there and it's no different than how I feel when pushing whatever my meager envelope is.

Besides, if the cables are taken down Clouds Rest will be overrun.
I'm not convinced Clouds rest would be overrun if the cables were removed from Half Dome. People have to "tag" 1/2 Dome because it's iconic, not solely for the view. If it were ultimately the view they were after, they would realize the view is just as good or better from other summits nearby and those summits would already be just as busy.

No, like Whitney, it's on most everyones "bucket list". Removing the cables doesn't deny access to Half Dome!!!! It simply makes it more difficult. If we are to use ease of access as criteria to manage iconic landscapes, then perhaps we should just put a tram up the thing....
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longri
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Re: Why not Clipping to Half-Dome Cables

Post by longri »

John Dittli wrote:No, like Whitney, it's on most everyones "bucket list". Removing the cables doesn't deny access to Half Dome!!!! It simply makes it more difficult. If we are to use ease of access as criteria to manage iconic landscapes, then perhaps we should just put a tram up the thing....
You're probably right about Cloud's Rest. But I don't agree that removing the cables "simply makes it more difficult". Doing that would exclude a huge class of people who would otherwise derive great satisfaction from climbing Half Dome. I'm no different than them. I've climbed Half Dome because it's Half Dome, just like all of the tourista bucket-listers that we're so fond of denigrating. My motives are not more pure. The only difference is that instead of only hiking up I can also climb it in rock shoes... well, at least provided nobody decides to clip all of the bolts.
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Re: Why not Clipping to Half-Dome Cables

Post by John Dittli »

[/quote] Doing that would exclude a huge class of people who would otherwise derive great satisfaction from climbing Half Dome. [/quote]

It would only exclude them if they were unwilling to learn how to climb low angle slab or unable to have a friend or guide take them up there. Again, using that criteria, we are "excluding" all those that can't do the cables by not having a tram. As well, we are "excluding" people from all the summits that don't have cables or trams. Should all the peaks have cables and trams? If not, why should Half Dome be any different?
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Re: Why not Clipping to Half-Dome Cables

Post by Steve_C »

This is a very old thread ...but I'll bite.

John D, have you climbed the "low-angle" slab of Half Dome without using the cables or any technical gear? If you have, then you have a chameleon's grip.
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Re: Why not Clipping to Half-Dome Cables

Post by John Dittli »

If you call sticky rubber "technical gear" then no I haven't, if not, then yes. I would say that virtually anyone that can do the cables, could climb the slabs on top rope.

But that's missing the point. All peaks that don't have cables or trams or other aids, have a certain degree of difficulty. We don't put handrails on those peaks, why should Half Dome be different?
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Re: Why not Clipping to Half-Dome Cables

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John Dittli wrote:It would only exclude them if they were unwilling to learn how to climb low angle slab or unable to have a friend or guide take them up there. Again, using that criteria, we are "excluding" all those that can't do the cables by not having a tram. As well, we are "excluding" people from all the summits that don't have cables or trams. Should all the peaks have cables and trams? If not, why should Half Dome be any different?
It's exclusionary now because the cables already exist.

Ultimately it's about drawing lines. One could draw them more or less restrictively, including or excluding different groups with different skills, aptitudes and lifestyles. What is the purpose of the National Park?

I'm sure there are plenty of hikers who could learn to climb Snake Dike or a route next to where the cables used to be but not all of them have the inclination or the time. They could hire Yosemite guides but the numbers that could be accommodated each day would be restrictive. And the cost would be prohibitive for some.
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Re: Why not Clipping to Half-Dome Cables

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longri wrote: It's exclusionary now because the cables already exist.

Ultimately it's about drawing lines. One could draw them more or less restrictively, including or excluding different groups with different skills, aptitudes and lifestyles. What is the purpose of the National Park?

I'm sure there are plenty of hikers who could learn to climb Snake Dike or a route next to where the cables used to be but not all of them have the inclination or the time. They could hire Yosemite guides but the numbers that could be accommodated each day would be restrictive. And the cost would be prohibitive for some.
Just because something "already exists", doesn't make removing it "exclusionary". Precedence have already been set regarding the removal or discontinued use of many such facilities throughout the Sierra. Closing the Tunnel air strip in the Golden Trout Wilderness, closing of roads over Morgan Pass, Mt Gibbs and elsewhere. Really the list goes on.

The fact that people can't fly their planes or drive their cars into these places does not inherently "exclude" them (as long as they are able to walk or ride a horse). The same of course can be said of removing the cables on Half Dome.

To answer your question about "What is the purpose of the National Park?" The Organic Act was drilled into me every spring for over a decade during seasonal training, I still remember it: What is the purpose of the National Park?

"to conserve the scenery and the natural and historic objects and the wildlife
therein and to provide for the enjoyment of the same in such manner and by such
means as will leave them unimpaired for the enjoyment of future generations."

But that's just the NPS mandate, on top of that is The Wilderness Act that overlays much of Yosemite including Half Dome, it is much more restrictive.

As far as excluding "different groups with different skills, aptitudes and lifestyles", those are for the most part personal choices, as are "have[ing] the inclination or the time" to gain the skills to climb mountains. For example, I have chosen not to learn to scuba dive, so I won't be exploring the underwater world of Virgin Island National Park. Nor would I expect an "atmospheric tube" allowing me to walk down there.

Of course there are some exceptions, specifically those that are physically impaired, and there are special programs to assist those truly in need. But even then, there has been paraplegic: assents of ElCap, trans Sierra skis and a winter descent of the Bloody Couloir to name a few. So no, sorry, removing the cables doesn't "exclude" anyone. If you can get up there via the cables, you can get up there without if you have the incentive.

Would removing the cables decrease the numbers? Yep. Are the numbers already being decreased through "artificial" means by the NPS? Yep. Do the numbers need to be reduced to comply with the Organic and Wilderness Acts? Yep. Do the cables need to be removed to comply with the Wilderness Act? Arguable.

National Parks and Wilderness Areas, cannot be, nor should they be, everything for everybody. But they should and do, offer something for everyone.
Last edited by John Dittli on Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why not Clipping to Half-Dome Cables

Post by BrianF »

Well Said John. I agree 100%
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Re: Why not Clipping to Half-Dome Cables

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John Dittli wrote: But even then, there has been paraplegic: assents of ElCap, trans Sierra skis and a winter descent of the Bloody Couloir to name a few.
John, don't forget about paraplegics peak bagging Clouds Rest! :) :) :)

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=8330" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Why not Clipping to Half-Dome Cables

Post by John Dittli »

Very inspiring Russ, what a great adventure to be involved in! Thank you for posting the link.

As well, my apologies to the op for hijacking the thread....
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