Gas Canister Stoves Question

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Tom_H
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Re: Gas Canister Stoves Question

Post by Tom_H »

I have two canister stoves, a complete Jetboil system and a Soto OD-1R Micro-Regulator. The Jetboil came with a windscreen. The Soto came out in 2010 and won awards from several groups (including Backpacker magazine). REI doesn't carry it anymore, but on their tables it was rated as the most fuel efficient. Reviews by the groups that gave the awards say that it performs better than other canister stoves at high altitude and cold temperatures. It does seem to work better for me than the Jetboil. Here are some reviews:

http://www.backpacker.com/editors-choic ... gear/14015" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Backpacki ... Soto-OD-1R" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews ... 0Peterson/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here is a seller:

OD-1R Micro Regulator Stove by SOTO Outdoors on Amazon.com

When I am baking with my Omnia (previously Optimus) mini-oven, I use the Jetboil because the three pot support arms are longer and the oven is more stable than on the short arms of the Soto.

Not all of the canisters are purely propane; some are mixtures of propane with butane and/or isobutane. Some of the stove manufacturers recommend a specific mixture for their stove. I don't know how much difference it makes if you don't go with the one they recommend.

I also preheat water by putting the water container inside a little black plastic bag and setting it in the sun for an hour or so. For a cozy, I use a lightweight kid's lunch pail made of nylon fabric and insulation. It sits upright with a freeze-dried pouch and lays flat for a bowl of soup, oatmeal, etc.

I have tended not to use the windscreen on the Jetboil because its radius is smaller than the pots or billy cans I use. I haven't found anything for the Soto, but would like to. I always try to find a well sheltered location for the kitchen. I try to cook away from where I sleep, especially if in bear country.

For many years I used the NOLS cook from scratch group system, but as I get older weight matters more and I just use freeze-dried pouches or instant oatmeal and grits for breakfast most of the time. This uses less fuel than having to simmer for extended periods. We used to take a big frying pan, but now use a small thin foldable one, if we take it at all.

Canister stoves are so much simpler than pumping white gas or building fires like we used to do. I know alcohol is simplest of all and the stoves made from soda cans weigh next to nothing. They can be really good on short trips when you're going for super-ultralight weight. Canister fuels get about 3 times as many calories of heat per ounce as alcohol though, so for longer trips, canisters turn out to be more weight efficient. The stove and can weigh more, but you can carry fewer ounces of fuel.
Last edited by Tom_H on Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:43 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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AlmostThere
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Re: Gas Canister Stoves Question

Post by AlmostThere »

Alcohol stoves do not have a valve, so are considered "open flame" and the ban applies. Sadly, my dozen or so will remain in the box while I continue to use my good ol' Snow Peak Giga.

Also a factor - the kind of fuel you use. I have gotten some fuel mixes that have noticeably *less* efficiency and get me less burn time than Snow Peak or MSR brands. Don't bother with any brand you don't recognize - MSR, Primus, Snow Peak, or JetBoil fuel for me. Really cheap off market canisters can also have impurities in the fuel that clog jets.
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longri
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Re: Gas Canister Stoves Question

Post by longri »

AlmostThere wrote:I have gotten some fuel mixes that have noticeably *less* efficiency and get me less burn time than Snow Peak or MSR brands. Don't bother with any brand you don't recognize - MSR, Primus, Snow Peak, or JetBoil fuel for me. Really cheap off market canisters can also have impurities in the fuel that clog jets.
With which brands have you measured poor efficiency?
Which ones clogged your stove?
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frediver
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Re: Gas Canister Stoves Question

Post by frediver »

Rant
Guess my 1st got lost.

These Reg.s do not make sense.
Having an open flame should not the the criteria, what happens to the flame
is a better indicator of potential hazard.
All stoves have failures, liquid, canister, alcohol, or tablet.
IMO
The only type stove I can think of that could need a ban
during fire restrictions would be a actual wood burner
because those can throw sparks. It short the ability
of any stove to throw a spark is a better indicator
of its potential hazard.

Still: I will follow the rules but it sure would be nice if they
made sense.
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AlmostThere
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Re: Gas Canister Stoves Question

Post by AlmostThere »

There is a local store that sells green canisters labeled "camping gaz" - these have a radically short life span compared to name brands. I have noticed that my giga sputters and has issues while using one, as opposed to the smooth efficient operation I get with msr or snow peak branded canisters.

Others from other states who post in another forum have reported similar issues with cheap fuel of odd make. I don't have a list of every knockoff cheap stove, fuel, etc - they exist tho, and you generally get what you pay for.
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longri
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Re: Gas Canister Stoves Question

Post by longri »

frediver wrote:Rant...

These Reg.s do not make sense.
Having an open flame should not the the criteria, what happens to the flame
is a better indicator of potential hazard.
All stoves have failures, liquid, canister, alcohol, or tablet.
IMO
It's big fire danger this year so I can see why they are worried. In Australia where the bush goes boom every so often they have fire ban days when the danger is high. You can't use a stove of ANY TYPE during those times. So for here the no open flame stove is probably a compromise they arrived at, less the peasants revolt.

Probably the biggest human danger is due to campfires.
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AlmostThere
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Re: Gas Canister Stoves Question

Post by AlmostThere »

Well, think about it. Tip over an alcohol stove that's basically a cup full of fuel, and you have a flame spreading far and wide and uncontrollable. Most people don't bring along a snuffer can for their alcohol stove, either. If a stove with a valve tips and you're supervising it (as you should always do with any stove) you turn it off and beat out what's caught, if anything.

Guess who's done both?

I fully expect a total ban - no stoves at all - by the end of summer.
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frediver
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Re: Gas Canister Stoves Question

Post by frediver »

Spilling, sorta true but really how far do you think a 1/2 or even 3/4 oz of Alcohol will travel? If on dirt then not very far, if on a boulder well they do not burn. Also consider that an alcohol is often much more stabil than a pressurized stove due to its position on the ground, not often above it. Sure everyone has the ability
to snuff out there alcohol stove in an emergency, they can use their cook pot, much better to burn the noodles than the forest.
Still how will that compare to a pressurized stove venting a jet of flame or a hot stove tipping over and potentially rolling away.

Accidents happen and that is why I maintain that an open flame should not be the criteria but the ability
of that flame to travel is more important, ie sparks.
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OzSwaggie
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Re: Gas Canister Stoves Question

Post by OzSwaggie »

Yes thanks for all this. I couldn't understand why alcohol would not be considered as safe as the others, either - the way we use it it is safe. (With a windscreen, on a large area of granite... ) But of course not everyone is this careful, and it is not easy to turn it off, so that must be why. The Inyo National Forest site is pretty clear that only certain types of stove (gas, pressurized liquid fuel or jellied petroleum, whatever that is ...) We have ordered an Optimus Crux, thanks for all the info. on likely consumption.
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HikeSierraNevada
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Re: Gas Canister Stoves Question

Post by HikeSierraNevada »

After some quick research, I find the regs are unclear and ambiguous about the most common types of fuel and stove alternatives in use. They specifically allow "jellied petroleum" which seems to mean "Sterno" fuel, which is actually a jellied alcohol. Does anyone have a stove that burns "jellied petroleum?"

Some alcohol stoves have simmer features which can extinguish the flames if fully closed, there's your "valve" but the regs say nothing about a valve.

"Pressurized liquid" fuel is allowed, although flare ups are a common issue - much more dangerous than spilling an ounce of alcohol. Technically, an alcohol stove is a pressurized liquid stove, it just operates at a very low pressure differential, but it's the same physics - the liquid fuel vaporizes and the resulting gaseous mixture burns through port holes driven by a pressure difference (higher pressure within the stove than externally). The liquid alcohol does not actually burn. I'd hate to argue this to a jury, but it illustrates how the regs are unclear.

No mention of Esbit fuel tabs, which does not flare, spark, spill, or spread.

The NFS needs to get up to speed with the latest products out there, apply some common sense (the most difficult part) and be more specific. I would expect different answers from whoever you happen to get on the phone on any given day.

And one last rant: Regulations should be based on risk backed up by science. They should clearly prohibit or allow certain fuels (e.g. wood), or stove types (e.g. BBQ grills), or some combination, and/or include general prescriptive requirements (e.g. no sparks, spills, combustible fuel with 3ft radius etc etc). This is way too much effort for understaffed and underfunded bureaucrats to fix. Play it safe, there's too much at stake.
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