Satellite Emergency Notification Devices: signalling gizmos

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gdurkee
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Re: Satellite Emergency Notification Devices: signalling gizmos

Post by gdurkee »

I guess this is where I still disagree (with regard to experienced hikers). The High Sierra is a very small region - it's probably one of the smallest ranges in N America. If you're on trail, you will see people - all day long. During peak season, there are multiple ranger stations manned along the PCT/JMT. The whoop-whoop-whoop of a helicopter is a familiar sound to anyone who spends time hiking around.
All true, but my point is that both getting word out that you need help or finding someone in that terrain is a major undertaking. Standing in the middle of Lake Basin on a search where you have no idea where the person is is overwhelming. It's truly a needle in a haystack and monumentally depressing. We are incredibly lucky to find anyone out there.

It does help that the Sierra is kinda sorta crowded, but the search effort then has to look up all the permits, find their phone numbers and call each person. This was done on the search for Larry as well as all major SARs. Interviewing is an art and a discipline in itself. But it takes a long time.

Another story? Sure Uncle George, tell us another one!! Well, OK. A few years back, a woman took a bad fall in a really isolated area. She was there for a couple of days before, by almost a miracle, some hikers heard her call for help and she was rescued. She wrote a book about it and I went to see a talk she gave. I asked her how she thought she might have been rescued had the hikers not heard her. She seemed pretty confident that once she didn't come out as expected, a search would have traced her route easily (she left no specific itinerary) because she was "a lone female hiker and people would have remembered her."

Nope. Not even close. There's a fair chance I talked to her on the JMT, but had no memory of her at all. Except by another miracle on the part of SAR, she would have been long dead by the time we would have gotten to interviewing people.

We can -- and are -- getting really loopy on this issue. But the point I want to keep coming back to is the cascade of decisions that should be made when deciding whether to bring a gizmo or not. They work to narrow the search; they work to call immediate help when you're injured; they work to allow you to call for help should you come across someone else injured (this is becoming quite common -- maybe almost half of the emergency calls now).

So, use one or don't. But the rationalizations made in the process should truly reflect the reality of their effectiveness and the risk to all involved of that choice.

g.
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Hobbes
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Re: Satellite Emergency Notification Devices: signalling gizmos

Post by Hobbes »

gdurkee wrote:We can -- and are -- getting really loopy on this issue. So, use one or don't.
Actually, it's been a good exchange. While I have no plans to carry a tracking device, I'm much more determined to make the extra effort to hook up with a hiking partner. If I can't find someone for a particular hike, then I'll stick to the traditional well worn paths.

My wife freaked out last year when she heard about Heng, because that was my route the next day. I had to call her right before from LP and assure her I would change my plans and take a different path.

The one consistent, overriding factor in each of the cases we've been citing is this: the hikers were alone. Ergo, go with a partner, or stick to the trails.
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Re: Satellite Emergency Notification Devices: signalling gizmos

Post by BrianF »

This is an issue that everyone can make their own choices about and as George so eloquently pointed out the decision doesn't just affect you and your loved ones. Yes, it is safer to go with a partner but many of us choose to go solo. For me, my wilderness experience is more impacted by travelling in a group than carrying a spot.
Consider also a partner scenario without a rescue beacon: Lets say you are in the Ionian Basin (a popular destination among us) descending a steep slope after a day of fishing - a slip, a fall, a broken leg, or worse, your back. Can't move. So Partner does what he can and rushes back to camp to bring food, water, sleeping bag, whatever he can to you laying there on the talus. So then the question is where to go for help? Lets say it is September and not many people out on the trails, Ranger at LeConte and Evolutuion have gone home for the season. So, do you hike out over Lamarck Col, down to Florence Lake, Bishop Pass? A very long day in any direction. Maybe it is already evening by the time the injured party is set up for the night, do you wait for daylight to head out for help? Between first aid, setting the victim up with what they need to survive and hiking out, alerting authorities and them getting a helo crew to the site you will lose at least a day, if not two. If the injuries are significant, Partner has to make a choice between staying or going, a tough decision for a friend to make (or a father, since my occasional partner is my son).
4oz. gizmo could change everything.
The direction you are moving in is what matters, not the place you happen to be -Colin Fletcher
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Re: Satellite Emergency Notification Devices: signalling gizmos

Post by Wandering Daisy »

Hobbes- you say the high sierra is a small range - compared to what? The Sierra is actually one of the larger ranges in continental USA. We may concentrate our time in the "high sierra" but we have to traverse the "low sierra" to get there! And once off trail, it is every square inch, not just a 2-foot wide path. And lots of people? Not in the shoulder seasons. Even in mid-August, I have been out for six solid days and not seen a single person in some more remote areas.

If you are a trail-only backpacker then I agree the search is not as difficult. But step off the trail, particularly if you do this most of the trip in really rough country, or climb - and it is an entirely different story. Fall shoulder season is the worst, because all it takes is a small snow storm to cover all evidence. And yes, I too, would prefer to be with another person. Over the years my backpacking partners have aged and no longer want to go. Each season, for the last 4-5 years, I do more and more solo. Frankly finding someone who wants to do my crazy agendas and corrdinating schedules is difficult. But I think the responsible thing for me to do, is swollow my pride and get the stupid SPOT and just get on with it.

I have previously objected to SPOT for three reasons - 1) cost, 2) weight and 3) too many people using it as crutch in place of experience. Cost has come down as has weight. Technology has trumped my two main reasons not to use the devise. It still is true that a number of novices will venture where they should not go thinking they can push the button and get "saved". But at least, the rescue will be short to a definite destination. I now reconsider, simply to aid SAR. I would be inclined to use a location only devise. I am of the generation that does not need constant communication, and kids are grown, husband fine with not hearing from me for 10 days. But in am very concerned about putting someone else in danger (SAR persons). The "go missing without a trace" certainly is possible for me, especially as I am a senior citizen and I do mainly off trail travel. I still choke on the cost, but hey, I will get hubby to buy it for me! Even the kids would kick in some $$ for a Christmas present!
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Re: Satellite Emergency Notification Devices: signalling gizmos

Post by snusmumriken »

I have up until now not carried a locator device. Considered it at various points but dismissed the idea for various reasons. Now I am rethinking it again.

What I am hearing from George is that people are found faster if they carry a locator device. It saves lives and cuts down on SAR time and resources. Makes total sense.

However this might not be the whole story. I can see three distinct cases where the use of locator devices may actually increase SAR time and resources used.
1. The SOS button is pressed without a true emergency.
2. The device malfunctions, loved ones at home get worried, and the SAR gets called out to search when no actual emergency exists.
3. Carrying the device leads to overconfidence and people attempt routes they otherwise would not feel comfortable doing.

Given that we now have had SPOT and similar devices in common usage for a few years, has anybody looked at statistics on how this has impacted SAR?
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Re: Satellite Emergency Notification Devices: signalling gizmos

Post by Cross Country »

I had something in common with Larry. I disagree very much with Hobbes. I don't like people who pre judge me (that applies to many of the regulars here), nevertheless I've always thought that Wandering Daisey knows what she's talking about. To me, riown is always a voice of reason so I respect his ideas. Flux is right. gdurkee nailed it. To Brian F. I can recommend many places to fish including NOT Ionian Basin. I enter all of this because I don't like to be redundant.
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BrianF
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Re: Satellite Emergency Notification Devices: signalling gizmos

Post by BrianF »

snusmumriken wrote:However this might not be the whole story. I can see three distinct cases where the use of locator devices may actually increase SAR time and resources used.1. The SOS button is pressed without a true emergency.2. The device malfunctions, loved ones at home get worried, and the SAR gets called out to search when no actual emergency exists.3. Carrying the device leads to overconfidence and people attempt routes they otherwise would not feel comfortable doing.
1. I don't know about other models, but with my Spot it would be serious user error to press the SOS button accidently, it requires opening a small cover marked SOS to access the button, all other buttons are on the face. But if you mean that someone would call for help just because they have a device and are in a tough situation (like an unplanned bivvy) that otherwise they could get themselves out of or just suffer through; I am sure that has happened and will happen with increasing frequency as more people have the technology. It already has happened with cell phones, at least in my area. That is the best argument for two-way communication.
2. I have instructed my contacts to NOT call SAR if no OK is sent, for that very reason. But your scneario could happen without that kind of information for the contacts. The OK signal should not be used for Rlown's deadman switch use, as you say the device could fail, or in my case my memory might fail and I would forget to send an OK.
3. I am not sure at if this would be the case, I suppose it would depend on personality, the same might be true for bringing a partner.
The direction you are moving in is what matters, not the place you happen to be -Colin Fletcher
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papasequoia
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Re: Satellite Emergency Notification Devices: signalling gizmos

Post by papasequoia »

This:
Wandering Daisy wrote:I have previously objected to SPOT for three reasons - 1) cost, 2) weight and 3) too many people using it as crutch in place of experience. Cost has come down as has weight. Technology has trumped my two main reasons not to use the devise. It still is true that a number of novices will venture where they should not go thinking they can push the button and get "saved". ... I am of the generation that does not need constant communication, and kids are grown, husband fine with not hearing from me for 10 days.
And this, especially #1 and #3:
snusmumriken wrote: However this might not be the whole story. I can see three distinct cases where the use of locator devices may actually increase SAR time and resources used.
1. The SOS button is pressed without a true emergency.
2. The device malfunctions, loved ones at home get worried, and the SAR gets called out to search when no actual emergency exists.
3. Carrying the device leads to overconfidence and people attempt routes they otherwise would not feel comfortable doing.
Maybe it's just because I'm getting old, but when I started backpacking 45 years ago all of this was the stuff of science fiction. Back then we learned first aid, how to build splints, how to build a travois and other contraptions if you had a partner - and a lot more. Solo hiking was to get away from everything, and if you got into trouble you knew how to get out of it or you suffered the consequences and that was that. Now you just check for bars on the cell phone or push a button for a satellite signal to be sent so you are rescued. For some time now I've been having a knee jerk reaction against all of this technology and it is ticking me off that many of you are starting to convince me that I may have been wrong to resist. (the Borg?) :eek: I don't know what the answer is, I guess like Daisy and others I'm starting to reconsider. But I'll tell you one thing - there should be serious consequences for people who abuse this technology. Every time I read about someone who called in a rescue because they were too tired to hike out or some other similar story I just want to track them down and slap them silly. :soapbox:
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Re: Satellite Emergency Notification Devices: signalling gizmos

Post by riverwalker »

From OP
You register the PLB -- not sure if there's a fee for that, but there's no subscription fee.
There is no fee for registering your PLB. That is the main reason I went with an ACR over a SPOT. It was a one time fee of $200 and the battery is good for 5 years. By then technology will have advanced and it will be obsolete.
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Re: Satellite Emergency Notification Devices: signalling gizmos

Post by SweetSierra »

Speaking to BrianF's hypothetical scenerio in Ionian Basin, several years ago on a trip with my husband and another couple to Ionian Basin we had a similar situation occur. While camped at the lake beneath Wanda Pass on our final day in the basin, a man from a nearby camp asked us if we could help him as his friend in camp wasn't feeling well and couldn't hike over Wanda Pass. He was so glad to see us as he didn't know his hiking partner well (they had met up just for the backpack) and didn't know what he was going to do. He didn't want to leave him to hike out to get help because of the time it would take to get help and because his partner would then be alone.

His other option would be to stay with him until he felt better but his partner's condition could also worsen and he would have wasted precious time. At that time we carried a satellite phone and we told him we could call for help if he needed it. I think the fact we had a phone helped to reassure the sick man. The two men discussed it, and said they would try for the pass with our small band for company. We all headed up and they climbed up the right and steeper side of the pass and waved at us as we took the more central route. The last time we saw them, they were setting up camp at Wanda Lake. We were headed for Darwin Bench so didn't stop to talk. But I saw one of the men wave as we went by, so we felt his partner probably felt better. I've often thought about the choices that would have been made if we hadn't come along and how just the presence of other people as well as the Sat phone bolstered their spirits enough to try for the pass.

As George Durkee said in his comment about the woman who fell and wrote the book about it, she was extremely lucky that people happened to pass by in such a remote area. I recall that in her book the SAR team who came to her aid said she was much closer to death than she thought she was. Another day, and she wouldn't have made it.
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