Satellite Emergency Notification Devices: signalling gizmos

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Hobbes
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Re: Satellite Emergency Notification Devices: signalling gizmos

Post by Hobbes »

rlown wrote:we've all seen some very big talus here. it doesn't take much to die in there. add that to your probability. Esp, the solo part. We could just accept that as the risk. Wifey doesn't like that much. And that spot isn't gonna get pressed.
I'm in the same camp as you. If you're on a trail, you probably don't really need a tracking device because (a) you're not in any particular danger; and (b) someone will most likely come along soon enough if you've fallen ill.

However, if you are off trail, and in fact doing so at a pretty extreme level like Larry, how is a tracking device supposed to help you? Are we to assume he was in some way incapacitated, but otherwise could have sounded an alarm if so equipped?

How does that jive with these 3 notable deaths from this past season?

Michael Ybarra:
http://www.outsideonline.com/news-from- ... 20705.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tom Heng:
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/C ... 750126.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Gary Dankworth:
http://www.kolotv.com/home/headlines/Bo ... 86376.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you're going to "play" at this level, there aren't any electronic gizmos that are going to provide any meaningful protection. What you really need is a partner, rope & a helmet. Since that doesn't comport with the beauty of solo x-c, then you're left dealing with the reality of the situation.
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Flux
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Re: Satellite Emergency Notification Devices: signalling gizmos

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Story:

I follow a board called 14ers.com as I lived in Colorado for a while and there is often good talk on there about gear etc. They are a tight community, like here. Well a couple years back a guy from Chicago went solo hiking in the Holy Cross Wilderness which used to be my back yard in Vail. The guy was last seen acting a little strange about two miles into his loop at a lake. He then vanished. A search took place and a lot of the 14ers folks altered weekend plans to go check out the area in hopes of finding this guy. Very familiar as to what just went on. He had sent a trailhead picture via cell. One could instantly tell he was armed to the teeth with the latest gear, but a very heavy pack as it looked. He had a GPS with him. NO SPOT.

They looked everywhere for this guy, but could not find him. They said goodbye. A couple years later his camp was found but some items were missing. They found his body near camp. His camp was just off a 4x4 road that leads to the old mines that were on his loop, but was invisible from the road. It was surmised that he got AMS and tried to get down and out but never made it. Someone may have found his abandoned camp and grabbed the GPS and other items but never saw his body some distance away.

For a guy with all the gear, he had no SPOT and that alone would have saved his ass. It also would have made his extraction a quickie SAR run instead of an exhaustive and expensive search. His family would have had closure in days had he passed but still got out some coordinates. I don't offer this in judgment, but more as advocating the use of these devices. We are all allowed to make our choices and I respect both decisions.

I own a SPOT II, and it's worked very well for me. I did not opt for the one that links to the cell phone as then I have two batteries to look after. I have preset messages and can change my contacts. I don't use the tracking, but transmit from base camps and any off trail adventures like peaks or remote lakes. I use this in conjunction with a very well laid out itinerary (even if generalized) that is left with my wife. I also leave her all emergency contacts including any relevant to my partners that I head in with. I love the device and would not abuse it, but I am also not new to the wilderness. I am a hiker and a scrambler. I don't go alone any more. I have a wife, 2 kids, 2 more on the way, a dog, and three cats that depend on me. I use the wilderness to empty the box and sooth my soul. I completely and utterly appreciate the device and have nothing but respect for the folks who might have to come save my ass. It's a modern convenience that I am glad I have. It is no substitute for caution and wisdom, but it soothes my mind knowing that I can mitigate risk and get after the GT's and a few peaks. It has limitations, as have been pointed out.

I admire greatly those that can simply head into the wilderness free of their burdens. That is not my fate. I am glad they are not shouldering my anxieties and responsibilities, which can be very very heavy at times. My SPOT takes away some of my anxiety, which is priceless and allows me to enjoy more freedom knowing that the folks counting on me are in touch with my travels. My wife loved zooming in on the map from her desk at work and seeing my SPOT on top of Merriam Peak or sitting by a lake fishing. She knew that I was sharing it with her in some way.

I had also taken the time to explain the coordinates and how she could relay those to the SAR group if we were late in coming out. She also knew that if she did not get one not to worry, we could be in a canyon or the batteries died. So everything is explained in detail. We have protocols.

Simply, I urge anyone who heads out to have one. Understand it's limitations and don't use it as a substitute for an itinerary, good judgement, and prudence.
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rlown
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Re: Satellite Emergency Notification Devices: signalling gizmos

Post by rlown »

a nice story.. too bad he didn't bring a friend along to share the experience being up there. You do not know a SPOT would have helped him.
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Flux
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Re: Satellite Emergency Notification Devices: signalling gizmos

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rlown wrote:a nice story.. too bad he didn't bring a friend along to share the experience being up there. You do not know a SPOT would have helped him.
He was seen on day one acting funny. He either took drugs or was already suffering AMS. He made it over one pass which probably put him there day one or day two. At some point he knew he was in trouble medically and began descending a jeep trail but stopped and camped. He had the ability to set up camp. He would have had the ability to push the SOS button on his SPOT if he had one.

Regardless, I advocate the SPOT or any other PLB. It's in my nature to take all precautions.
Last edited by Flux on Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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rlown
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Re: Satellite Emergency Notification Devices: signalling gizmos

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but you don't really know.. heck, i can tell you if I had a SPOT, i probably couldn't hit the button in a situation. you can conjecture all you want. We're out there because we love it. should probably leave it alone.. choose your poison, or your love. they sometime grow on the same stem.
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gdurkee
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Re: Satellite Emergency Notification Devices: signalling gizmos

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However, if you are off trail, and in fact doing so at a pretty extreme level like Larry, how is a tracking device supposed to help you? Are we to assume he was in some way incapacitated, but otherwise could have sounded an alarm if so equipped?
So I'm not sure what's not getting across about search and rescue here. Larry's is probably a good one to use as an example. After he talked to someone at the trailhead and gave a couple of ideas of where he might go, he utterly vanished. There was not a single clue or foot print found during the entire search -- about 50 ground searchers and up to 3 helicopters with thousands of hours of cumulative search time. Not one clue. It goes without saying there was a huge emotional toll on those here, his family and the searchers.

It is clues which concentrate the search. They can be physical (a track or camp) or discovered by investigation (interviewing the last person to see him). Tracking devices have the potential to add one more clue: the person's actual location at a certain time. True, if they're only checking in, say, twice a day, you've still got a big area, but you've also got a smaller one than what you would otherwise have without a clue (so to speak...).

Most everyone here knows how huge the search area for Larry was. It matched almost exactly that of Morgenson in '96. No clues there either. So the only point I'm making here is that these things can significantly reduce the search area or even pinpoint the location exactly. That is a huge, huge advantage on a search or a rescue (not the same thing, of course).

So, it appears that Heng, Dankworth and Ybarra all died instantly. But all involved multi-day searches of fairly large areas in extremely dangerous terrain (after all, these guys died there, so now you're sending more people into it...). In answer to your question, then, a location signal would have been a darned good thing to have. Again, it would have reduced risk to the responders and brought quicker resolution to the families and friends.

Next: being incapacitated and unable to push the button. Not sure where this is coming from either. Even if the person is dead, you still have a tracking location reducing the search area -- a major reduction of risk for searchers and consolation to the family if the person is thereby found more quickly.

But the majority -- by a huge margin -- of searches are for people with survivable injuries or who are actually lost who CAN push the button and call for help (as well, of course, as some bogus calls).

And, absolutely, those of you against them can cheerfully accept possibly dying as a risk. But there's no question you're also then accepting the risk of anyone who comes looking for you. I'm not necessarily against that, but strongly pointing out that it's not just about you. There are other considerations to be weighed.

I've never gotten to an injured person and had them say, "no, don't rescue me, I accepted the risk, I'll just die here" (or get better..).

g.
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rlown
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Re: Satellite Emergency Notification Devices: signalling gizmos

Post by rlown »

I've never gotten to an injured person and had them say, "no, don't rescue me, I accepted the risk, I'll just die here" (or get better..).
you won't hear that from them.. they're not dead.
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Flux
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Re: Satellite Emergency Notification Devices: signalling gizmos

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rlown wrote:but you don't really know.. heck, i can tell you if I had a SPOT, i probably couldn't hit the button in a situation. you can conjecture all you want. We're out there because we love it. should probably leave it alone.. choose your poison, or your love. they sometime grow on the same stem.
You're correct. I don't know, I can only look at different situations and support my own opinion on owning one of these and using it.

I also don't hike backcountry alone. So I'd have someone there to help me decide to push the button or not or even do it for me.

But I also got one because I would rather have every advantage when it comes to taking care of my friends as well as myself. I'm not a fast hiker, I bonk easy, but I would do whatever it takes. Ankles turn, boulders move, AMS strikes even the fittest. I'll push the easy button every time if it concerns getting the hell out of dodge.

But I get it, facing fear is another reason we head out there. Perhaps I do myself a disservice by having a safety factor. Perhaps my brain feels better but I am no wiser or braver. But at the end of the trip, I just hope I got up a nice class 3 peak and caught a few fish worth talking about. The SPOT wouldn't take from my feeling of serenity at dawn in the mountains nor would it comfort me much when the lightning was cracking a quarter mile a way at 3 in the AM.

gdurkee is not the only SAR person I have heard from who advocates SPOTS and PLB's. One ping, one location and a whole lot of guesswork could be avoided.
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John Harper
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Re: Satellite Emergency Notification Devices: signalling gizmos

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rlown wrote:but you don't really know.. heck, i can tell you if I had a SPOT, i probably couldn't hit the button in a situation. you can conjecture all you want. We're out there because we love it. should probably leave it alone.. choose your poison, or your love. they sometime grow on the same stem.
I think Mr. Durkee is just pointing out that newer technology exists that may help prevent certain tragedies, and we all need to look at what we have (and have to lose) when going into the mountains alone. You seem to be a wee bit negative about this, but that's your choice as well. I have hardly ever carried a signalling device (maybe a whistle and matches) but if you have a wife and kids (I don't) your perspective will probably change. We all can get overconfident in our abilities, that's when you make mistakes.

John
Last edited by John Harper on Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Hobbes
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Re: Satellite Emergency Notification Devices: signalling gizmos

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gdurkee wrote:Larry is probably a good one to use as an example. ... It goes without saying there was a huge emotional toll on those here, his family and the searchers. ... Even if the person is dead, you still have a tracking location reducing the search area -- a major reduction of risk for searchers and consolation to the family if the person is thereby found more quickly.
After considering some of your points, I will grant you that having a SPOT to locate a body provides both comfort to the family & reduces risk to SAR operations.
gdurkee wrote:But the majority -- by a huge margin -- of searches are for people with survivable injuries or who are actually lost who CAN push the button and call for help
I guess this is where I still disagree (with regard to experienced hikers). The High Sierra is a very small region - it's probably one of the smallest ranges in N America. If you're on trail, you will see people - all day long. During peak season, there are multiple ranger stations manned along the PCT/JMT. The whoop-whoop-whoop of a helicopter is a familiar sound to anyone who spends time hiking around.

OTOH, the peaks & eastern crest has some of the most dangerous exposure one can encounter. If you're off trail bouncing along the ridge lines, a fall has a high probability of it being your last. SPOT would serve your first point, but not your second, with regard to the 3 people who fell this year, plus presumably Larry.

What might have saved these people was if they had gone with a partner (or two) along with some rope. Not necessarily to get help and/or provide assistance, but to present a 2nd opinion/sanity check. (And yes, T Heng did have hiking partner(s), but they got separated. He was alone when he fell trying to descend in a storm.)
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