Them damCan Regs.

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yosehiker
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Re: Them damCan Regs.

Post by yosehiker »

I hope you are joking.

Bears want food. Yes, a bear can still smells like food. There is almost no way to prevent a bear from smelling food that a human has. But we can prevent a bear from getting that food by putting it in a bear can. So they at first try to get food from the can, but eventually fail, and learn that getting into a bear can is impossible is a waste of time. The bear will then learn that though they can smell food at a campsite, they can't get into it, so they will continue eating it's natural food sources. (obviously the process is simplified here for conciseness)

I'm not sure the basis of your suggestion, but fear of humans doesn't really matter. Bears don't really care about humans, they care about food. In your suggestion, presuming no food storage, the bears can still get the food they just need to be scared of humans. Well, if there is a significant reward, say 5 days worth of high-calorie, sugary (compared to natural)food, and all a bear has to do is not be afraid of the human to get it, what's the logic progression there? Bear attacks human, then gets food. This is certainly not what we want to encourage bears to do or have hikers constantly trying to scare of bears. It's bad for everyone.

Just carry a can, it's really not that hard.
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frediver
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Re: Them damCan Regs.

Post by frediver »

I just feel the cans are more of a reactive measure than pro-active.
IMO we need to be more aggressive for better long term health of the
bear population.
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whrdafamI?
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Re: Them damCan Regs.

Post by whrdafamI? »

Apparently you have never seen the results of a bear attack on someone who got "aggressive".
Better to have it and not need it than it is to need it and not have it!

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DoyleWDonehoo
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Re: Them damCan Regs.

Post by DoyleWDonehoo »

Geez, it seems ever year or so there is another crop of beginners or others with distorted ideas about bears, and it does not help there are those out there who think bears are just big cute teddy bears and go spastic when catching sight of a cub. Once at a trailhead before a backpack, a woman backpacker told me straight up that bears were more important than humans. Some just don’t understand that bears are wild creatures like marmots and deer, only that bears can (and sometimes do) turn predatory, and we are on the menu. Even some Rangers, who should know better, seem under-informed: for example I have at times attempted to explain to them that Black Bears do not physiologically hibernate.

I have had more bear encounters than I can remember. Along with my backpack partner and solo, we have run off bears, rescued other backpackers backpacks from bears, seen them in various colors and not always black, unexpectedly met them off-trail, observed them in the backcountry at close range and surprised them (and us) nearly face to face. I have never lost my wariness of them, but I understand them enough to respect them.

As far as I am concerned, there are two kinds of bears: Habituated Bears and Un-habituated Bears.
Habituated Bears: These bears are usually found in car campgrounds and camps near trailheads and one days travel from the trailhead (though these particular ones seem to be thinning out), and are the "problem bears". Generally, habituated bears can be found in places where there is a big human impact. These bears do nearly all of the camp raiding and human food snatching. These bears are unusually bold, but they are solely interested in human food, and not the humans themselves, but they are the ones most likely to generate a Bear Incident. Bears are as unpredictable as humans, but it is very rare for a habituated bear to be found in remote areas that have little human impact.
Un-habituated Bears: These are the vast majority of bears, are shy and usually run away as fast as they can when catching sight of humans (a habit they learned when they were sharing the Sierra with the grizz), and generally avoid humans and live in areas with low human impact. These bears are usually found well below tree-line in habitat that can sustain them. Sure, you might find scat above tree-line (I have seen bear tracks above 11,000 feet on a pass), but bears will cross ridges and passes to reach richer pastures. With enough temptation, they can be habituated, but it takes a lot of food and its availability to make it worth their while to make them habituated.

While I could go into the Sierra with my food in paper bags without fear of losing any (I have never lost my food to bears and there will never be a first time), I now use a can (if I have to) or my Ursack (for the rest of the time: much better and just as safe). Mostly I think bear containers best use is to keep out marmots and other critters. But it is best to remember that bear containers are bear resistant, not bear proof. I have packed out pieces of bear-can that I found.
And just because people use a bear can does not mean people with bear cans are not losing their food to bears, because they do. One time at Glen Aulen I saw a group of 14 backpack beginners who had lost half their food despite the fact all had bear cans. The bear had invited itself to breakfast (from open bear cans), and they had no idea how to rescue at least some of their food. A good example of a bear incident in a high human impact area.

I have to admit, I do think that bear-resistant containers have reduced the number of habituated bears, because in recent years I have seen no habituated bears and only the usual few un-habituated bears. It is getting so if you DO see a bear, you are lucky to have that privilege. Count yourself fortunate if you see one.

In particular, I think beginner backpackers should use bear-cans no matter where they go. Well experienced backpackers can follow rules and use discretion when there are options available.

I always now use some sort of bear resistant container, but my favorite is the Ursack. It is just as good as a can, much lighter, easier to pack and if there was justice in the world it would be approved in all areas. Experienced backpackers, lite-packers and mountaineers would sure appreciate it. The Ursack failure rate is no worse than rigid-side containers. The best argument its detractors can come up with is that something could leak out; but what sort of fool carries enough liquid with their food to leak a “significant bear reward”!? Bears need between 2000 and 3000 calories a day, and something leaking out of an Ursack would come nowhere near that. If you need to carry that much liquid, then use a bear can! I could live with a rule that says “no more than 8 ounces of liquid can be carried in a Ursack”. I don’t know about you, but all of my food-stuffs are dry. No bear can get into my Ursacked food, and never will.
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markskor
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Re: Them damCan Regs.

Post by markskor »

frediver wrote: IMO we need to be more reactive... aggressive for better long term health of the
bear population.
Puzzled by what you mean by reactive… Agree with above that getting too close to any wild bear is always a bad idea.
Are you advocating rubber-bullet guns (like the Rangers use now in YNP), or pepper spray, or perhaps tazars… perhaps real guns? How close do you figure you have to get to a bear to use any of these “reactive” measures effectively?

IMHO, the current agenda of requiring a bear cans/ food storage in the wilderness is working pretty well. In fact, feel that the posted areas of mandatory can carry could easily be expanded too...writing is clearly on the bear’s Facebook wall.

Evidence (see a past George D posting) shows recently, where cans are mandated, that 99% of all bear scat today is now aluminum free. Thus evidence indicates the bears are not getting anything in the way of human food in the backcountry, at least not as much as they were 10 years earlier when cans were just an idea and hanging was permitted.

Trailhead areas remain the main culprits today. Too many ice chests left out, too much food waiting in the open air unwatched, too many cars with food stored inside, and too many folks afraid to chuck a few boulders.

Maybe you cannot fix stupid and sadly perhaps, not much can be done to educate the clueless, but as for backpackers, the rules are the rules. Carry a can; it works!
Mountainman who swims with trout
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frediver
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Re: Them damCan Regs.

Post by frediver »

1st I am not really new at this, IE. not a beginner.
Funny though, tonight I watched some youtube of a bear
robbing grocery bags at whitney trailhead. IMO that
video looked to well staged to be an accidental loss of food,
IMO this hiker wanted the video.
I can really only vent or Rant at my frustration over the
bearcan issue in general.
The poster is correct concerning the "camp/trailhead" bear problem,
is this problem spreading out to the back country, can or could it be stopped
who knows. We had this same type discussion over a year ago.
I still feel that a more active deterrent could be developed.
I favor pepper balls, good for both 4 and 2 legged predators.
Pepper balls would also allow for a bit more stand off distance between
the shooter and bear, chucking boulders means you are to close.
What is your alternate plan if rocks or harsh language don't work.
I feel the lack of a reasonable alternate means of defense is why more
people do not chuck boulders.
Old style dog traps could be set and substitute pepper for the cyanide.
In another state I have heard ( not sure where ) food traps have been set
with Alka-Seltzer tabs in the food to give a bear a major belly ache when
they robbed the set.
Regarding the absence of Aluminum in the bear poop all that could just be
due to repackaging of food to save weight and space in a pack/can.
We could go back and forth all week with this.
I'm sorry I opened this can of worms, lets just bury it.
Like I said, if I must carry a can I will, I just don't want to.

"Buy a pack that is 2.8 pounds lighter and a Bearicade. The net will be a lighter load than you had before."
It's tough to get much lighter than a G-4.
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AlmostThere
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Re: Them damCan Regs.

Post by AlmostThere »

:rolleyes:

What are you going to do when yelling and throwing rocks doesn't work? ha. It's worked for years. It's never NOT worked. It's only going to not work if the bear HAS the food, at which point - duh, let him have it, don't provoke a fight. Deed is done. Yosemite website says just that. And then you clean up after him and go home, or at least to the store, and store the food right next time.

Are you sure we're talking about the same state? California bears aren't Alaskan bears.

Just FYI, there are more incidents in Yosemite parking lots, cabins and populated frontcountry where bears cause damage - 500 to 2-5 in the backcountry, thereabouts. The only injuries due to bears have been directly related to improper food storage. There have been ZERO deaths due to bears in Yosemite.

People caused this problem and if they CONSISTENTLY followed the food storage rules they would solve it. The problem is that bears still get food, and people don't take the bear canisters seriously. It's too heavy and won't fit (because they didn't read the rules and plan to pack it in the backpack) so they leave it in the trunk and try to hang, sleep with the food, pile rocks on it - and surprise surprise, a bear gets fed. And they are clearly not doing well with cleaning out their cars, there are habitual repeat offenders like the yearling in Tuolumne Meadows trying to get into the rangers' cabins.

The SAR team uses bear cans, and they are hauling a whole lot more than you are. Plus they are using the heavy ol' Garcia cans. So it could be worse...
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fishmonger
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Re: Them damCan Regs.

Post by fishmonger »

frediver wrote: The more they are in wide spread use the more Bear Confrontations seem to happen.
"seem to happen" - how do you figure?

Not sure if you have been in the Sierras in the 80s, but I can tell you that every night at ANY campsite between Whitney and Yosemite was a bear party. Sleep was a rare event, as you spent half the night chasing bears off your poorly hung food. All they did back then was patrol camp sites, smell for humans, because in more cases than not, it was a guaranteed easy meal.

Any time you camped above timber line, it was a lottery, hoping no bear would want to cross over the pass that night (and they do that more often than you would expect)

Just look what bear lockers did to places like Reds Meadow campground, where we had to put our food on top of the bathroom buildings, and we could set our watches for the daily 6am bear dumpster visit. Bears still show up where people without bear cans hang out such as Tuloumne Meadows Campground, but only because among 300 sites you will have about 50 wilderness noobs who don't take the warnings seriously enough, allowing bears to get frequent food rewards.

Where bear cans are used, they don't even bother any longer. They just move on to an easier food source.


and that whitney gocery bag video - exactly the same as the idiot campers who expect bears to come in only when there's no human watching stuff. If you allow this to happen, you train them to try it again. Vigilant use of bear canisters and NEVER leaving food unattended is the only way to get them to go elsewhere, but places like Whitney Portal attract too many people who just don't have the slightest idea about the problem and how to deal with bears (how about honking that horn a little earlier and confronting that bear aggressively? guess you had to be around in the 80s to know how they will react).

If you get deep into the backcountry, where most hikers carry canisters now, you will have a very different bear population. They have abandoned their daily camp site raids due to lack of success. Canisters provide peace of mind for the hiker against bears and rodents above treeline. It's the best 30 ounces I ever packed into my pack, and I've done the JMT about 10 times before the cans were even invented. Never lost any food in those years, but did I ever lose sleep...

The night before the morning campfire photo in my avatar was taken was one of the most memorable bear visits I can recall - somewhere way off the beaten path on the trail up to Goodale Pass near VVR, where you rarely see any humans. This was in 1989, and the bear came at 3am - was half way up the mediocre tree we had to use to hang food, and from the moment I woke up to dawn, i had to be outside the tent, with flashlight and then campfire to keep the bear from trying again and again. Cat-like critters - for minutes at a time I could not hear or see it, and then suddenly it was within feet of me sniffing my water bag laying on a log behind me. Then it suddenly was back at the tree with the food, and there were millions of dry twigs on the ground, except the only one making noise was me. Needless to say, we got going before 6am that morning (we also had an earthquake that night...)

So you can say not taking a bear can will provide life-long memories. Not sure if they are the good stuff you are looking for when hiking in the backcountry.

The most disturbing BS I've recently read came from Mr. Pro hiker Skurka, more or less telling the world that he's above the law and doens't need to follow the bear can regulations because he knows what to do to avoid bear contact. The guy should lose all his sponsors for statements like this one:
I consider carrying a canister when it IS required, and usually I do. I do not carry a canister to protect my food, the bears, or my fellow backcountry user -- I can do those things without a one. Instead, I carry one in order to protect myself from backcountry rangers, who could fine me if I'm caught without one.
found here under where to carry a can:
http://www.andrewskurka.com/advice/tech ... isters.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What he doesn't realize is how bad things were before all us other lowly hikers started carrying cans to allow a few UL bozos to sneak through while breaking the rules.
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lambertiana
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Re: Them damCan Regs.

Post by lambertiana »

I can only speak from my experience, but every single back country bear encounter that I have had resulted in the bear turning tail and running away after just a yell or two. Even in trailhead areas a well placed rock worked every time I tried it.

The canisters do work, the bears in the back country have learned that they cannot get at food in a properly closed canister and move on. I had a bear walk through my camp once and knock over the three canisters we had, and then move on once it became apparent that they were closed. No messing with them to see if they could be opened. To me that is evidence that the canisters do work.
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Re: Them damCan Regs.

Post by DoyleWDonehoo »

As an example of unpredictable black bear behavior, in today's news, at Lake Tahoe a bear car-jacked a Prius and it crashed into a neighboring house. No food was involved. True story.

Back when bears were a bit thicker in the back-country (when we were hanging food), there were/are other ways of avoiding camp-pests. Knowing bears are creatures of habit (they tend to make rounds), we would camp some distance away from well used camps (if possible). Another trick that seemed to work was to avoid camp-fires, which we believe attracts bears. Habituated bears associate people with food, so it is no stretch for them to associate camp-fires with people. Old Indian saying, "To find white man, look for smoke."
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