PCT thru-hikers and bear canisters

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gdurkee
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Bears, bears, bears

Post by gdurkee »

Well, although guilty of it occasionally myself, we do need to play well together. Let's all have a group hug... .

OK. In no particular order:

Yosemite does not have boxes because they don't think they're compatible with wilderness esthetics. Cables between trees are OK, but not boxes (except in Little Yosemite Valley). Trade-off, of course, is that bears get more food up there. Sequoia Kings seems to feel that the boxes are so effective, they justify the esthetic intrusion on wilderness experience.

The regulation (which is, incidentally, a law) is the beginning of an attempt to apply a solution equally. Unfortunately, it's not equally applied -- that is, some areas require canisters, some don't. However, I don't really see where it punishes those who try the hardest. Your food either goes into a canister or it doesn't. Now, the good news is that the rangers I know are fully aware of how much food you can squish into a canister and are sympathetic to having overflow the first couple of days.

The bad news is, that overflow, as far as I'm concerned, has to go into a box -- which means you have to get to one. I no longer have any sympathy for hanging food anywhere canisters are required. You, individually, may get away with it on a trip or two. But I see the cumulative effects of bears always -- always -- getting food that's hung when they find it. There's just no way of "properly" hanging it anymore (in areas where hanging is no longer allowed; more importantly, it just doesn't work. I speak here as the <ahem> co-inventor of "counterbalancing."). Also, since the USFS doesn't seem to be fans of boxes in the backcountry, it means at the Lone Pine/Independence trailheads, you've got to get into the park and find a box.

So as long as you get to a box (when you're in the park) I'm OK with it even though, technically, you've got to have all your food in a canister unless you're a through hiker (JMT or PCT or something).

Maybe I shouldn't tell you this, but the fine is not $5,000. I can't quite remember, but it's either $50 or $100.

OK. Hope that helps,

g.
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BSquared
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Post by BSquared »

There's an apparently up-to-date (and occasionally field-checked) list of bear boxes at Climber.org: http://www.climber.org/data/BearBoxes.html.
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Post by StumbleBum »

For anyone who uses the Topo! software package, you can download a map of box locations:

http://maps.nationalgeographic.com/topo ... ?fileid=28

I think it may have been put together by the same group as BSquared's reference.
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Post by Wanderer »

"Who elected you god anyway? Nobody came down rudely on you or your opinions...until now. The fact remains that today there are giant loopholes in the laws"

First of all, let me apologize if I came across as a jerk... that wasn't my intention, as I REALLY don't want to see this site turned into another TT where all flamer-type comments are acceptable! A little common courtesy is a good thing, and if I didn't exhibit it, then shame on me & I truly am sorry!

Having said that... I HATE anti-comon-sense laws and am the first to rebel against them! BUT, there are productive, and non-productive ways to do so. Blatently ignoring a law isn't ever the answer, but working to CHANGE the law CAN be a part of the answer!

It drives me crazy when I walk my dog in my neighborhood, ON HIS LEASH, with all the signs posted about "leash your dog" being the law, yet every night we encounter one or more folks walking their dog off-leash, because, in their mind (and I've asked them" "that doesn't apply to my dog, he obeys" BS. Well, in the last two years my dog (an older, arthritic guy), had been attacked, bitten, etc. 3 times by so-called "well obeyed" dogs. BS!

So... when I see someone say "I know what I'm doing, the laws don't apply to me", I immediately think of the trips to the VET to sew up my dog from the other dogs, off-leash, who chewed him up while he was leashed & couldn't properly defend himself (not that he should have had to... that's why there's a LAW about leashing!)

So.. Sorry to have ruffled your feathers Markskor, but the laws apply to everyone. If you don't like them or think they're unfair, (and I agree with you that corrections need to be made), then pursue, with all your vigor, changing those laws! Don't just ignore them & self-rationalize that they don't apply to you, that doesn't help change anything in the bigger picture!
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markskor
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Post by markskor »

Wanderer,
I also apologize if I came down heavy on you...not my intention.
I also do feel strongly about protecting the bear ...especially for my grandchildren...
That being said, yes the laws/regulations/statutes are somewhat unfair.
What about this: "7 mile from any road", you “must use a can or else” condition in Yosemite?
Is there a line drawn on the soil? (Seems a bit vague)
How are we to know where is it is legal - exactly...why?.
Why is it OK for JMT hikers not to have to obey the same laws as the rest? Why are some sections exempt? Can the bears read a trail map?
Are the bears outside Yosemite any less worthy of our protection?
My biggest complaint though is the "you cannot hang anything" regulation in Yosemite...I agree that all should go into the can if at all possible, unfortunately, sometimes...not intentional but...I still would rather hang those things first night...the liquor bottle...chapstick...any spills, than sleep with them, but...and as for the fine, $5000 or $100, whatever...it does not make sense if you are sincerely trying to keep to the spirit of the law.
Oh, BTW, Why are bear cables legal, but bear boxes non-existent?

Once again, 1000 pardons.
Mark
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gdurkee
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prowlin' and growlin'...

Post by gdurkee »

markskor:

The theory on JMT or PCT hikers is that since they're doing such long trips, it's assumed there's no way to carry enough canisters. In Sequoia Kings (only, I think) they are still not allowed to hang their food. They must use a bear box, just don't have to have a canister in those areas where they're otherwise required. Not absolutely sure of current regs. in Yosemite. They allow hanging in many areas.

Yep, it's a bit confusing at times, but that's why you get a wilderness permit and, with luck, check your map. Some areas aren't yet considered bad enough (with bear encounters) to require canisters. Some, like the Pinchot - Cedar Grove - Forester triangle are considered bad enough that you absolutely are required to have a canister or be at a bear box. I actually am at the point where I think they should be required in all areas between Yosemite and Horseshoe Meadow just to avoid the confusion you and others complain about and, more importantly, because the bears just move around. As you note, they can't read maps.. . (I'm not so sure of that, actually...).

The problem is both the NPS and USFS are reactive -- they impose the regulations AFTER the bears become a problem and not before. Thus the gerrymandered maps of 'required' areas.

Re: cables vs. boxes. See my post above. It's an interpretation on esthetics and wilderness. Sequoia and Yosemite interpret it differently. Life isn't always fair or consistent... . Sorry about that.

This, though, is the take-home message: The "Spirit" of the law is to keep bears from getting human food. Hanging food does not work, even if it's allowed. To prevent bears from getting food you really, law or no law, should carry enough canisters to hold all your food or get to a bear box.

Good luck,

George
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markskor
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Post by markskor »

George,
Thanks for the quick and concise report...but now I am more confused than ever...
Hanging, which as you say (admittedly), "does not work" but is safer than sleeping with food as a first alternative (if temporarily overstocked), which seems a bit more dangerous...to humans…but will not get you fined.
If you get a "JMT wilderness permit," and bail out early on the trip, then it is OK not to have to carry a bear can, but if you are only going...say Onion Valley to Yosemite, and are truthful, you have to have one. Hmmmmm?
If you are travelling ultralight, you are exempt, but if you travel traditional, you are not. (Maybe if I carry a little sign - “I am an ultra-light , JMT camper", thus it will (trick) dissuade the bears?)
It is OK for one agency to accept bear cables..., which have the potential to cut bear on sharp steel cable, but a brown, hidden, bear box is aesthetically unpleasing to humans...
Yosemite, which runs active strings of mules to Merced HSC…often returning back empty, refuses to implement more needed bear boxes in heavy use areas (too much trash accumulation) …but it is OK for rangers like you to have to carry trash out by hand from Rae Lakes..
Gerrymandering restrictions - accepted by some Sierra districts, but shunned by others...
Life is not fair... Do not these agencies not talk to each other? I guess they believe their individual backyard bears differ that much from those found in another’s backyard.
Reactive measures are the norm for NPS, but anathema to YPS... (WTF?) I guess we are just SOL…Lots of BS - LOL...
I guess wilderness definitions vary as to where in the Sierra you are...

The writing is on the wall…soon (I pray) a bear canister will be mandatory for the entire Sierra for all overnighters…sounds fairest to me.
I wonder how long it will take.

Exposing the hypocrisy in forums such as this…..out in the open…. Maybe we together will fix this…sooner than later.
Mark
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gdurkee
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Post by gdurkee »

Mark:

Ah, a vital element missing and some of it may be my fault... . No matter what or who or where, the food HAS to be secured in an approved manner. Sleeping with it is not an approved manner. In Sequoia Kings, there's no exception for through-hikers to get out of the basic responsibility of securing the food. They CANNOT hang it in areas where canisters are otherwise required. They can ONLY go to a bear box. Sleeping with the food is every bit as much a violation as hanging or stuffing under a rock. It is also hugely, hugely dumb. Way dumb. I know people do it (a lot of PCT hikers). Every year we get 2 or 3 injuries as a result and, more importantly, we get bears who learn to rip into tents even when no food is present. If you talk to someone doing it, feel free to tell them they're putting you and everyone else at risk as a result of their stupidity.

Yosemite has no exception for through-hikers. You either carry a canister or try to power through to the areas where hanging is allowed.

A few years back, the various forests & parks formed the Sierra Interagency Black Bear Group. A good start for all these folks to begin talking to each other and make regulations consistent. But you've still got 3 different National Parks and, I think, 5 different National Forests. It's gonna be awhile... . Not hypocrisy, just slow and not always hugely organized... .

George
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Post by markskor »

George,
After thinking about this for a week now, and I guess I've narrowed it down to perhaps, someone has not thought this through all the way. (I am sorry to beat a dead horse here but...)
The current regs say no hanging anymore in Yosemite - probably soon in most of the Sierra. The current fine - $100 - $5000 - whatever...It is easy for anyone to spot brightly-colored hanging bags from afar - a surefire magnet for a backcountry official (Can we say ranger here?) - fer sure.

Thus, human nature being what it is, this current regulation does have the effect of encouraging (pressuring?) backpackers into sleeping with items. Argue all you want, (and I agree with your arguments too), this rule actually forces people - (those of us already carrying regulation bear cans) - who would before hang a few items for safety - right directly above the camp in plain "pot-banging" sight - now to sleep with some small items... for want of anything else, or any other readily available alternative. Why hang, invite a ranger to come over, even though hanging is/was the best safety option. "I will just stash "it" in the tent."
As bears learn that more people are not hanging - they now look closer into tents for their pre-learned sustenance; the bear finds more success - finds the "it" - in the tent area, (mainly due to this no hanging policy)... If just one person suffers an injury - perish the thought - death - due to this pressure - this philosophy, is it worth it.
(A lawsuit waiting to happen...)
I suggest - for all overnighters:
1) mandate carrying at least one bear can for all areas - per permit (above 5000 ft...?) Horseshoe Meadows to Tahoe.
2) make it legal to hang those dubious items (smell, oils) without worrying about fines - you must have a bear can along too though.
3) actively discourage sleeping with items at all cost.
Mark
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Post by krudler »

I'm not necessarily taking a side in this debate, or agreeing with all of this (although, I do hate the can), but I stumbled across this at
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin ... ordan.html and it reminded me of this debate.
Enjoy:
---------------------------
Publisher's View: Bear Predation (Commentary)

Do bear canisters reflect poor management policy and only serve to increase bear tolerance of humans?


BY Ryan Jordan

Backpacking in the most remote areas of the United States (Yellowstone or Alaska) is a humbling experience: you are not at the top of the food chain.

Indeed, there is some (small) probability that you will be the object of predation by a grizzly bear.

Picture this: waking up to the sounds of huffing, snorting, growling, and jaw cracking of a bear ripping through your tent intent on eating you. After consciousness slips away, the bear will drag you some distance and feed on your body (often starting in your midsection). Then, you'll be covered in dirt as the bear guards the cache - you - by taking a nap on top.

This is nonfiction wilderness in its finest hour, no?

Ironically, there may be absolutely nothing you can do to avoid the encounter. Good camping, food handling, and storage practices probably help, but provide no insurance policy against either avoiding an encounter with a predatory bear, or surviving one. Sometimes, in predatory attacks, it is doubtful that even bear spray and powerful guns can be deployed in time to guarantee survival.

Are we sensationalizing the terror of bears in the backcountry? Ask the families of Timothy Treadwell, Amy Huegenard, Glenda Ann Bradley, Kathy Huffman, and Rich Huffman. The common denominator of their existence: they have all been eaten by predatory bears in the past few years.

California wilderness parks make for good case studies of controversial bear management practices. The storage of food in so-called bear-proof containers (while the hiker is encouraged to sit back 50 yards or more and be patient) trains bears to be persistent and further habituated to the odors of human food. YOSE officials believe that keeping your distance will result in a lack of human habituation - an interesting notion considering that the scent of a human - and its food - dominates a bear canister and its hiding location. Through generations of so called "no-reward" training (somewhat of a fallacy, in light of the fact that all food storage systems have been known to fail at some level), our bear canisters may unknowingly be contributing to the habituation of bears to human presence. When bears are no longer threatened by humans - or their food storage devices - the risk of predation may increase. Are YOSE and SEKI time bombs for bear predation? California bears already recognize cars and coolers as food sources. An increasing number of reports suggest that backcountry bears know darn well what's in food canisters. Is it simply a matter of time before a shift in the fragile ecological balance of California's wilderness results in a dramatic food shortage that sends bears searching for humans...as food? If bear predation can occur in GSMNP, it can certainly occur in California.

Another option: keep a night sentry armed with a can of bear spray to guard your "unprotected food" - giving any bear wanting an easy meal a blast in the eyes that will send it coughing and wheezing for an hour. Negative conditioning works. Grizzlies in Yellowstone and Alaska have been known to stop charging at the sight of someone holding up a can of bear spray - or the the sound of the spray exiting the can - without ever getting a taste of it - a sign that it has been sprayed before. Bears that have been sprayed multiple times by hunters in the Yellowstone area have been known to keep their distance from humans and avoid them readily. Much to the chagrin of agency managers in Montana National Parks and Wilderness areas, sleeping with your food - armed - is more common than they are willing to admit.

UDAP may have a better solution: a 3.7 lb backpackable electric fence that can be used to surround your camp and/or food. Again, the focus is on negative conditioning: providing punishment to the bear for seeking a human encounter. Negative conditioning may be the only way that predatory attacks on humans can be minimized. All the best management practices for food handling and camping won't deter a bear that wants a meal bad enough.

Or, maybe in 100 years, after black and grizzly bear populations have exploded, wilderness has dwindled, and climate changes shift food profiles, we may simply be asked by YOSE/SEKI officials to camp only in life sized canister tents provided by the park service.

Think about it: AMC Huts, California style.

Ryan Jordan is the publisher and co-founder of Backpacking Light Magazine. His 2005-06 slide show, "Grizzly Style", presents an honest and frank view of backcountry camping in grizzly bear country, discussing the discrepancies between real practice vs. mandated policy by land management agencies. In addition, Ryan discusses the practical limitations - and consequences - of existing bear management policies by Montana and California land management agencies, with particular attention paid to the policies of Yellowstone, Grand Teton, Glacier, Great Smoky Mountains, Sequoia-Kings Canyon, and Yosemite National Parks. The slide show closes with a testament to the Great Bear and why its preservation is valuable to the health of American Society. For information on booking "Grizzly Style" for an event, please Contact Ryan at BackpackingLight.com.

Citation:

"Publisher's View: Bear Predation (Commentary)," by Ryan Jordan. BackpackingLight.com (ISSN 1537-0364). http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin ... ordan.html, 10/12/2005.
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