HOrses

Grab your bear can or camp chair, kick your feet up and chew the fat about anything Sierra Nevada related that doesn't quite fit in any of the other forums. Within reason, (and the HST rules and guidelines) this is also an anything goes forum. Tell stories, discuss wilderness issues, music, or whatever else the High Sierra stirs up in your mind.
quentinc
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Re: HOrses

Post by quentinc »

Balzac:

Here is a great organization that shares your (and my!) feelings about stock in the backcountry. http://www.highsierrahikers.org/ They have quite a number of horror stories about whether it is "possible to encourage the USFS along some of these lines," but they're probably the most effective force out there trying.
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Bad Man From Bodie
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Re: HOrses

Post by Bad Man From Bodie »

Image
You see a lot more sitting high in the saddle not looking down at the trail. I vote for the horse and cows are good to eat! You can all rest now knowing my kids will learn how to pack stock into the wilderness, and we go off trail - less impact and no hikers :D !
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mokelumnekid
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Re: HOrses

Post by mokelumnekid »

FYI- The issue of grazing and on-going abuses there, is a seperate one from horse packers. I practice a live-and-let-live with recreational horse packers. Most are fine, responsible and interesting people. Others are boorish jerks just like some backpackers I meet. I don't do horse-packing but have used commercial packers occasionally in the past to supply spike camps for geological research. All that activity was on-trail and well within what most of us would assume to be accepted "best" practices. And I follow the Golden Rule- greet everone with a smile and respect. I step off the trail when they approach and bid them a big "how-do." It isn't my cup of tea, but for some folks it is theirs, and importantly, it is allowed by law.

Grazing practices, which you mentioned, are a whole 'nuther kettle of cow-crap. While impacts from horses may be proximal to well-used campsites, the ongoing and abusive over-grazing of parts of the Carson-Iceberg and Mokelumne Wilderness is disgusting and wide ranging. A fully informed rant on that point is beyond the scope of this forum, but in a nutshell, the Stanislaus and Carson Nat'l. Forests have long turned a blind eye to manifestly illegal and unsustainable damages to large meadows and wetlands. Is grazing allowed and legal? Yes, it is based on the provisions of the Wilderness Act. Has it led to systemic/in-grained abuses? Yes. But one has to work within the system. The Central Sierra Environment Resource Center in Twain Harte has done an excellent job of opening a dialog with all concerned to see how working together, some compromises can be made that allow for existing grazing prrmits to be honored, while bringing some impacts more in-line with *current* wilderness practices. I urge you to contact/support them.

But on a related note, I am somewhat glad that there has been progress on a related topic. I remember in the '70's when you couldn't go (almost) anywhere in the Stainislaus/El Dorado/Carson Forests without running into a band of dirt-bikers. Now that was a group- especially duriung deer season- that left MOUNTAINS of garbage in the back country and ripped the dickens out of meadows etc. Thankfully, that is no longer the case. So there's some progress folks.
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dave54
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Re: HOrses

Post by dave54 »

I seem to be in the minority here. I do not mind horses or livestock in the backcountry. Never bothered me.
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AldeFarte
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Re: HOrses

Post by AldeFarte »

I agree Dave. I have had more humorous encounters with cows than otherwise. There is good and bad. I am ambivalent about packers. I have had issues with some of their clients,but that's a good reason to see what's in the next valley.
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mokelumnekid
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Re: HOrses

Post by mokelumnekid »

Correction- in my previous post when I said "Carson Nat'l Forest", I should have said "Carson District of the Humboldt-Toiyabe Nat'l. Forest."
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toejam
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Re: HOrses

Post by toejam »

I've been places where I was glad there was some horse traffic because otherwise the trails would have disappeared. There's room in my heart for horse packers. But I'm starting to wonder why we need to allow herds of cattle and sheep in wilderness areas any more. Seems to me there are plenty of places for grazing, but not that much wilderness.
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markskor
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Re: HOrses

Post by markskor »

Regarding horses and mules, I have mixed feelings.
Horses, personally, I never have used them…Maybe in the future. When I am no longer able to do what we all do on foot, I can readily see myself riding up the first, steep, uphill, backcountry miles, maybe for bringing in extra supplies, and/or if carrying provisions for a longer stay, much like my good buddy OldRanger last summer, in order to be somewhere important – on time. (He is older.) On the trail though, I pay them little mind, always moving off-trail and letting them pass safely, usually with a quick hello and a smile…Like I said, no big deal.

My concern is with parasites, especially Giardia and the like. I recall from somewhere UCLA past that roughly 10% of the horse/mule population are natural hosts to Giardia, (much like ~20% of humans)…with no ill effects ever shown…just passing through. Being as Giardia does not overwinter (one month below freezing destroys even the cysts), and has to be re-introduced each season, who is doing the re-introduction?

Beavers carry it but I see few beavers in the Sierra. Deer carry everything but I seldom see deer scat in the water…maybe? Most humans…well, let’s not go there. I do see multiple horse biscuits often at many water crossings, even more in or near the water at backcountry camps where horses and mules are used.
Are horses and mules primarily to blame for our having to carry filters?
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dave54
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Re: HOrses

Post by dave54 »

Just to lob another grenade into this discussion :lol: ---

It is fairly well documented that grazing in the Sierras helps reduce urban sprawl in the foothills. The ranching families need the cheap grazing land, for without it, they could not afford to keep the private land that forms the core of the ranching operation. They would be forced by economics to sell their private land (read: to developers). As Jack Thomas, former Chief of the Forest Service said "The worst managed ranch is still better wildlife habitat than the best planned subdivision." So think of public grand grazing as a subsidy to keep the private ranchlands surrounding and inside the National Forests undeveloped. Doubly important now that the state has ended the Williamson Act payments to counties.

And public land grazing on BLM land in the Great Basin is net beneficial to wildlife. All those stock ponds and spring developments the ranchers are required to maintain are also used by other critters.
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ndwoods
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Re: Horses

Post by ndwoods »

Hm....well...I could care less about horses in the backcountry! I figure there are backpackers that are slobs and horsepackers that are slobs. It would just be nice to get them ALL on the same page....

And just to throw a little tidbit out there...I am a backpacker that just happens to be horse crazy and own 2 lovely mares that I spend every moment riding I can. I do not however have an interest in horse packing...too much work and too much worry that my girls might take off in the night. I am happy to trail ride the hills of home...and hoof it on my own two feet in the Sierra!:)

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