Penalty for not adhering to entry point

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giantbrookie
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Re: Penalty for not adhering to entry point

Post by giantbrookie » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:49 am

rightstar76 wrote:Solution to stuff coming up on day of trip is Plan B. Easy in the Sierra Nevada if you're flexible and willing to give up spectacular scenery for nice scenery.
Actually, I think the High Sierra is so large with so much to offer that Plan B, C, D etc. simply involves exchanging spectacular for spectacular scenery compared to your Plan A. I've done this for a very long time.

In the pre-electronic era we'd have to reserve permits by snail mail, which meant you sent in your prioritized list of alternative entry points (ie Plan A, B, C, D). You didn't know what you got until weeks after you sent in your reservation request. First come first serve did not begin the day before in those days, either but rather at opening time (usually 7 am) at whatever ranger or entrance station you were at. There was this entrance kiosk on Bishop Creek road that was amazing at 7 am. Folks would camp in the sage around there or lay out their bags in line. I managed to get a Bishop Pass Labor Day entry in 1984 and it was one of those "never again" experiences. Some very clever manuevering (ie super fast point guard stuff) when they split the line into two was the key for being the very last under the quota. I had slept UNDER my vehicle to avoid being run over by folks pulling in. Anyhow, to this day I have Plan A, B, ... although with the new system (can tell electronically whether you can reserve your choice, plus the day-before walk-up for first-come) I have rarely had to call the audible.

The last time I had to revise the game plan a bit was for my 2015 Little Lakes Valley-North Lake off trail epic. I couldn't get the desired Little Lakes entry (from which I planned to do Spire Lake then Italy then Bear Basin then Pinnacles Creek, then Ramona Lake, thence out in 5 days) but ended up with Pine Creek, which would have been a much tougher day 1 going to Spire. The new game plan was to hold on to this permit just in case, but cancel it if I could get first-come-first-serve the day before entry at the Mammoth ranger station. It turned out I got the first-come-first-serve Little Lakes Valley permit, cancelled the reservation and ran my trip as per the original Plan A. Another thing that can happen is that unforeseen circumstances may alter a trip plan even if you have the reservation you want. This worked out well for me in 2008 when picking up my permit to go out of Rancheria for Tehepite (and loop out via Goddard Creek and Tunemah, the "Tunepite" plan). There was a fire burning in Tehepite (which would burn all year, as it turned out) so I opted for going out of Hoffman Mtn.(Ranger told me Hoffman Mtn counted as "Rancheria" under the entry quota because there is no Hoffman Mtn entry, but he would have adjusted to the paperwork to Woodchuck or other ne3ar to Blue Canyon to Tunemah then looping back through Woodchuck Country (Tunechuck 2008, arguably my all time greatest off trail backpack and fishing experience I've had). The bottom line is that you can always find a Plan B or C or D of equal appeal in the High Sierra. It is a huge mountain range with so many amazing places, so advanced planning to set alternatives is a good idea, even if one usually gets their Plan A. Even though I've been backpacking up there for 50 years plus and try to always do something new for my best trips, I still have multiple "new" options that more or less equally attractive.


Since my fishing (etc.) website is still down, you can be distracted by geology stuff at: http://www.fresnostate.edu/csm/ees/facu ... ayshi.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;






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Re: Penalty for not adhering to entry point

Post by Vaca Russ » Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:08 pm

Wandering Daisy wrote: True confessions! ......
Guess who wrote this story about an event on Aug. 5, 1998 (somewhere in southern Lyell Canyon, YNP)?

"Somewhere in the middle of this, around 3:30p, I came across a ranger talking congenially with a backpacker. As I strolled by, giving a little wave, the ranger turned to me and politely asked if I had a Wilderness permit. Busted. Of course I didn't since I had arrived late the previous evening after the office was closed. I was unsure of the penalties, but they are rumored to be quite high, somewhere around $100. Rather than confess and plead for mercy, I chose the other tack, which is to lie and see what I could get away with. I calmly replied that I was on a dayhike, and did I need a permit? He looked at my backpack rather skeptically, unconvinced. I explained that I had left Agnew Meadows (near Devils Postpile) at 6:30a, and planned to reach Tuolumne around 6p, where a friend was picking me up. I had brought a sleeping bag and bivy sack in case it was necessary to bivy at the pass since I had little info on the snow conditions that might be encountered there. I very little else with me, I pointed out. He was still unconvinced, hardly believing I could have walked 20+ miles already. I pointed out that the shirt I was wearing was from the Big Sur Marathon, and that I routinely hike very long distances. This seemed to do the trick, as he came around to where he wanted to believe me. He explained that a new regulation, enacted just this year, prohibits carrying of backpacking gear (sleeping bags, tents, etc) without a valid overnight permit to counter just such false claims that happen quite frequently (this way they don't have to actually catch you in the act of overnighting in the wilderness). I replied that I was unaware of such a regulation, but that as a visitor to the Wilderness I should be responsible for knowing all pertinent regulations, thus I would be perfectly understanding should he decide to give me a citation. This seemed to mollify him to where he decided to only take ID info from me, and not issue a citation. He warned me that my name would be kept "on file", and should I be found in a similar situation in the future, the fine would double. Happy as I was to keep the money in my wallet, I forgot to ask him just how much money these darn citations would cost. "

I will give you a hint, he is not human. :D :D

JMHO,

-Russ
"...Or have you only comfort, and the lust for comfort, that stealthy thing that enters the house a guest, and then becomes a host and then a master?"

Kahil Gibran.

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Re: Penalty for not adhering to entry point

Post by tie » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:45 pm

phenocryst wrote:When I was writing permits at the Mt Whitney district, long ago, one of the most common questions we would get was “what’s the fine for not having a permit?” Yes, many people just factor in paying a fine as part of the cost of their trip. (They may not factor in being escorted out, etc.)
This is unfair. People are curious. I doubt that many people factor a fine into their trip costs.
rightstar76 wrote:Solution to stuff coming up on day of trip is Plan B. Easy in the Sierra Nevada if you're flexible and willing to give up spectacular scenery for nice scenery. My personal experience is that once you're in the backcountry and hanging out in camp, it doesn't matter much where you go. But I understand for some, it *has* to be a spectacularly beautiful place like WZ, Yose, SEKI or Deso, or it isn't worth it esp. if coming out of state or from afar, or after accumulating vacation time.
It's not so easy for a lot of people to switch to a plan B, especially if coming from out of state or from afar. They don't know where to go! People put a lot of planning into their trips.

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Re: Penalty for not adhering to entry point

Post by rightstar76 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:40 am

Tie, see giantbrookie's post above.

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Re: Penalty for not adhering to entry point

Post by Wandering Daisy » Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:13 am

People coming from out-of-state should always get reserved permits, if they do not have enough knowledge to have alternate plans. To me, part of the planning process IS to have 2-3 alternate plans. Even if I had a reserved permit, if, for example, there was a fire and smoke in an area, I would want to find something else.

Adhering to an entry point, to me, is different than slightly altering the entry time. Stuff happens on the drive to the trailhead that may delay you. If you go in very early AM the following day, vs the afternoon of the entry date, shortly, you end up at the same place. Not that it should be a standard practice. When I get a first-come permit at noon for same day entry, I try as best I can to actually go in that afternoon; when I get a permit for next day, then I also put up with the wait, as annoying as it is.

If you rely on "first-come" permits, flexibility and patience is just part of the game. If you reserve a permit, I see little reason you would alter the entry point. So I see this as a bit of a "non-issue" unless you are of the type who thinks they should get exactly what they want, regulations be damned.

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Re: Penalty for not adhering to entry point

Post by Fly Guy Dave » Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:58 pm

I believe the whole permit system is in places where the volume of visitors could easily have a negative impact on the environment. I did a several day backpacking trip into the Bob Marshall Wilderness in Montana a few years ago and I drove the 55 miles on a dirt road just to get to the trailhead. There is a FS station down there too and when I went in there to get a wilderness permit they looked at me and said "A what?" Then they asked where I was from. When I told them California, they said that must be something that is unique to our region and they had never heard of them before. I had a similar experience two years ago at the Bridgeport Ranger Station when I was getting a permit (without the weird looks this time) and I guy from Alaska was in there and overheard what I was asking for and he pressed for more information. The ranger briefly explained to him the whole wilderness permit system to him and he remarked that they had nothing like that in Alaska. So, I guess if you want to avoid red tape and government bureaucracy, head to either of those states and grab your gear and go!
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Re: Penalty for not adhering to entry point

Post by rightstar76 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:28 pm

Have you bought your tickets yet?

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Re: Penalty for not adhering to entry point

Post by dave54 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:52 pm

Fly Guy Dave wrote:I believe the whole permit system is in places where the volume of visitors could easily have a negative impact on the environment. I did a several day backpacking trip into the Bob Marshall Wilderness in Montana a few years ago and I drove the 55 miles on a dirt road just to get to the trailhead. There is a FS station down there too and when I went in there to get a wilderness permit they looked at me and said "A what?" Then they asked where I was from. When I told them California, they said that must be something that is unique to our region and they had never heard of them before. I had a similar experience two years ago at the Bridgeport Ranger Station when I was getting a permit (without the weird looks this time) and I guy from Alaska was in there and overheard what I was asking for and he pressed for more information. The ranger briefly explained to him the whole wilderness permit system to him and he remarked that they had nothing like that in Alaska. So, I guess if you want to avoid red tape and government bureaucracy, head to either of those states and grab your gear and go!
Many Wilderness Areas in California do not have a permit system or trail quotas. Only the more popular ones where some control of numbers is needed.
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Re: Penalty for not adhering to entry point

Post by Lumbergh21 » Tue Jul 10, 2018 2:22 pm

Similar question regarding how you fill out where you will be camping each night. Last year, hiking out of Mammoth, the drop down menu didn't include my first night camp site. Was it because I wanted to camp over 20 miles from the trailhead, and no one thought to include that site for that reason or was it because they were trying to control the number of people camping in that area by controlling which trailheads included that campsite as a first night option? I just selected the site option closest to where I actually planned to camp and camped where I had planned to camp. By the way, there was only one other person camped in the area, which had established sites for at least 8 tents, and this person was at least 1/4 mile from where I was camped.

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Re: Penalty for not adhering to entry point

Post by TehipiteTom » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:52 pm

Lumbergh21 wrote:Similar question regarding how you fill out where you will be camping each night. Last year, hiking out of Mammoth, the drop down menu didn't include my first night camp site. Was it because I wanted to camp over 20 miles from the trailhead, and no one thought to include that site for that reason or was it because they were trying to control the number of people camping in that area by controlling which trailheads included that campsite as a first night option? I just selected the site option closest to where I actually planned to camp and camped where I had planned to camp. By the way, there was only one other person camped in the area, which had established sites for at least 8 tents, and this person was at least 1/4 mile from where I was camped.
My understanding is that you aren't held to the campsites you put down on your permit (there may be exceptions to this in some areas). I think it's understood that people will revise routes depending on the situation.

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