Cancelling a permit

[balzaccom]

In the last ten years and roughly 1000 miles of backpacking in the Sierra, we have met exactly three rangers. One near Vogelsang in Yosemite who was hiking with a group and did not ask for a permit or anything else. One hauling a tired/injured/disabled hiker out on his mule in the Ansel Adams Wilderness. And one near Mono Pass who was doing trail repair work. He's the only one who checked our permit---but also shared a lot of good information about the area...

[AlmostThere]

I guess no one will ever want to backpack with me. I see rangers a lot.

I may be the only person who remembers that Yosemite used to let people reserve permits online. I don't think they will go back to that.

[Wandering Daisy]

There can never be enough rangers if the backpacking public does not buy into the regulations. The flagrant disregard of the rules that seems to be showing up in backpackers is part of our modern culture that seems to glorify breaking of rules. As always, when the participants in an activity are engaged in actually setting the rules, there is more compliance. I see the backcountry ranger as more of an educator, than enforcer. They really need to have a serious conversation with the rule breakers and point out the benefits of the rules. The same thing I do when my 5-year old grandchildren break the rules. I hate the bear can, but I do buy into the need for it, so I comply. Getting a permit is a pain, but I buy into its need, so comply. But once on the trail, it is my own wilderness ethics that prevent me from plopping my tent down on top of another camper, brush my teeth in the stream, or poop on the trail. That is a result of education, not enforcement.

I backpack a lot in the Wind Rivers where there are no quotas or permits required (except you need a permit to go on the Indian Reservation lands - but no quota). Only commercial outfitters need permits and have quotas. Commercial regulations are more geared to protecting each outfitters turf so they can remain economically viable. Otherwise it is pretty "hands off". Just to the north, Grand Teton NP is highly regulated. Mostly, the no permit system works, but it is hit and miss in the popular areas - you can be the only one there, or there can be dozens of others. I am not sure simply regulating daily entry from trailheads prevents this very same thing. Not that I want per-camp regulations - I really like that I am free to go as I want to once I get my permit.

Regulations that cannot be enforced often just make users ignore the regulations.

[dave54]

Probably should mention how thankful we should be that a very high percentage of Americans aren't into backpacking and also don't mind subsidizing those of us who are to keep the fees low. The low fees come with a price, low availability, but it's much preferable to the alternative for most of us.

I looked up the numbers. The total cost of the US Forest Service wilderness management program divided by the total wilderness visitor days comes to $38.75 per person per day (2014/2015 FY). Yeah, a big subsidy. Something to remember the next time somebody brings up grazing fees or timber sales.

This cost is for the Forest Service, not the NPS, the original topic, but I suspect the costs are similar.

[dave54]

Apropos of this topic. Tom Stienstra in the SF Chronicle wrote this today:

"For camping, a phenomenon developed this past winter when roughly 15,000 Californians gamed the reservation system and locked up the sites at a relative handful of marquee campgrounds for weekends and at the most popular areas. This includes Point Reyes National Seashore, Yosemite National Park, the coast at Monterey Bay and Big Sur, and the Steep Ravine Cabins on the Marin Coast."

Anybody know what he is talking about? Here's a link to the full article:

http://www.sfgate.com/outdoors/article/ ... 945965.php

What he calls 'gaming the system' is really ordinary families planning ahead and getting reservations in early. Something everyone here has done on occasion.

[Wandering Daisy]

FS is really good about making the no-show permits available for walk-ins. Point Reyes is horrible. I do not think they care as long as the campsite is booked. I supposedly got the "last permit" on an earlier trip this year, only to find that at camp, there were plenty of empty sites. I have had this experience repeatedly at Point Reyes. I found the State Parks system for front-country campsites works quite well. When you book a spot, it technically is not that particular spot. The camp host tries to get you into your designated spot, but they also manage the campsite on an as needed basis, and can legally assign different sites. Some campers do not like it; I think it is good managing.

I do think it is "gaming" the system if you reserve many campsites at different campgrounds for the same night, just because you cannot decide earlier where you want to go, or, book a site for several different times, just to be able to change your mind later, or book several sites just in case someone wants to go with you later. All that is selfish in my opinion. Particularly in campsites that are hard to get. To me good planning is to do your homework enough to make a real commitment.

One reason I do not reserve much is that I like flexibility that is hard to have with reservations. We now do not even reserve RV campsites when we do an RV trip. It just works out better. We have never been left high and dry and often have very positive experiences finding a new place we had not previously thought of. And after I had to reserve a permit, way to early, and paid too much to reserve a Whitney Permit a few years ago, and after 5 months wait, others bailed on me without paying their share, I just went to the ranger station and easily got a new permit due to tons of no-shows and cancellations, due to everyone's paranoia about getting a permit. If I want to go into the Whitney Zone again, I will do a "walk-in". It has been years since I reserved anything.

[LMBSGV]

Unlike the forest service, Yosemite, and Kings Canyon, Point Reyes allows you to pick up your permit after 4:30 pm without phoning in advance to let them know. They leave the permit in the wooden box outside the Visitor Center. One time, I suggested to the ranger at the permit desk that they keep track of non-shows from the permits not picked up and if people repeatedly are no-shows and don't phone to cancel they not be allowed to camp in Point Reyes for a year or so. He was sympathetic to the suggestion, but doubted anything would be done.

While the forest service, NPS, and state parks are good about dealing with wilderness permits, they are not so good about car camping reservations. If you have a reservation for 3 nights and don't show up, the campsite remains vacant those 3 nights. For example, the last time my wife and I camped at Lodgepole, I noticed site 101 (one of the best campsites) was unoccupied. I asked the man at the kiosk about it and he said since they reserved it for 4 nights the site would have to remain unoccupied. I've also seen this happen at the state parks and Death Valley where a reserved site sits unoccupied for two or more days. (Since we had the neighboring site on two of those occasions, we thought it was great not to have to deal with neighbors.)