too many LOOP trip requests

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LMBSGV
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Re: too many LOOP trip requests

Post by LMBSGV »

In my opinion, the best trip planning resource is the 3-map series, "John Muir Wilderness (Inyo and Sierra National Forests)/Sequoia-Kings Canyon Wilderness (Sequoia and Kings Canyon National Parks); North Section, Central Section and South Section. USFS 1"=2mi. I have the 1992 maps. I am not sure if there are newer versions. These maps are of perfect scale for planning. The best thing about these maps is that they show the currently maintained trials vs. not maintained trails. Lots of good information, including campgrounds, the "no fires allowed" areas, and trailhead access roads. I think these are available at REI as well as on line.
I also have been using these maps to plan trips for over 20 years. They "are of perfect scale for planning." I've come up with a lot of trips just by starting at a destination and seeing all the various ways I can get there.
I don’t need a goal destination. I need a destination that meets my goals.

http://laurencebrauer.com
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Re: too many LOOP trip requests

Post by SSSdave »

Of course most backpackers carry traditional loads of varying degrees with ultralighters in a modest minority. Although there are more loops possibilities available to ultralighters, many of the requests are from those obviously not. I'm not referring just to recent threads but rather over the last few years on the board so believed it would be worthwhile to temper that direction and still do after reading what others have input so far. Thus for traditional loads out and backs far out number loop choices that perusing topos will quickly show to be true.

Of course the discussion intent is NOT about discouraging people from asking for advice and help but rather steering those who are unfamiliar to a thread starting point of broader possibilities that include all route types including loops. Eric and Maverick already have considerable such info and advice in their sticky stuff. We discourage novices from hiking early season in mosquitoey areas or siting camps along trails when privacy is of interest for good reasons. At this point I'll concede any added sticky stuff is not going anywhere as the subject seems to have drawn lines of opinion and in any case is a very minor matter
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Re: too many LOOP trip requests

Post by Wandering Daisy »

Since we seem to be into "definitions" in this thread, let's clear up the "ultralight, UL" definition. UL packers (such as the PCT hikers) are a minority BUT their base weight is in the 10-15 pound range, with an added 3-4 pounds for food for a 3-4 day trip. That is a total pack weight in the range of 15-20 pounds. "Light" base weights are in the 15-20 pound range. I fall into the "light" category, as do many of those who post here. With a bear can, my "base weight" is about 18-20 pounds depending on if I add fishing gear and extra clothing for shoulder seasons. I regularly do 3-4 day trips with no more than a starting pack of 25 pounds, and that includes the weight of the pack. It does not include what I wear or trekking poles, because that is not on my back.

A pretty reasonable rate of hiking on trails is 2 mph. That also takes into account about a 10-minute break per hour and misc. stopping to read maps etc. Add an hour for each 1000 feet gain for the average hiker. I usually can beat this- generally I take an extra half hour per 1000 feet of gain. So even with a moderate pace, an 8 hour walking day (leaving four hours for camping most of the backpack season) could be 3000 feet gain (pretty typical of my "loops" and 10 miles of distance. Walking 10 hours in mid summer is not that hard. And if coming back, usually down, you are more likely to have about 1000 feet gain or less. Last summer I hiked out of Nine Lakes Basin to Crescent Meadow in 11 hours, just in time for the sun to go down. That is about 21 miles, all on a well graded, well maintained trail. I would not want to do that day after day, but it was fine for a quick exit. Off-trail is a different matter; then a 7-8 mile day is a full day. In summary, "most" backpackers can do 30-40 miles in a 3-4 day loop. Hobbs can beat me any day in his trail mileage! He is actually verging on UL. He is younger than me too! :D

Some backpackers, of course, are more into the down time- camping, fishing, climbing etc. That is just fine too. But if someone wants a loop and says they can do 10-15 miles a day, I will try to think of a trip that meets those goals. Now, if they say 15 miles a day off-trail, then I would correct that and point them to about 7-8 miles a day. New members should also be aware that there ARE great in-and-out routes too. Preferring a loop, but willing to do an in-and-out WILL get them more suggestions from us. And as much as I would prefer "newbies" do a bit more research themselves before asking for a "route", I try not to come off too condescending and give them a few suggestions. When I moved here I had to figure out a whole new mountain range and used plenty of "aids" such as guide books and advise from lots of people (no internet then). It is daunting until you get the geography figured out.
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Re: too many LOOP trip requests

Post by Hobbes »

Wandering Daisy wrote: Hobbes can beat me any day in his trail mileage! He is actually verging on UL. He is younger than me too! :D
The real reason I can hike fairly long days is because I constantly train. My usual routine is to jog a 10k every other day, and walk 3-4 miles the others. This is year round - the only variance is whether the surf is any good (usually fall/winter). The other exception is when my wife has signed us up for a city vacation, in which case we usually stroll 10 miles/day. (Even so, I often bring my trail runners and go for an early short jog.)

As for being younger, not by much; I'm older than Jim, Mav, Russ and a host of others. My younger brother is pretty competitive, and as we talked last weekend at a family wedding, he was quizzing me about some hikes/daily mileage. Since we have the same build, etc, and have both been pretty good at sports, I told him the only thing he has to do is jog 2-3 miles every other day. That will get you 80-90% of where you need to be condition wise; carrying a load and gaining/losing elevation provide the finishing touches.

I think BlueWater & I might be the two big UL fans/advocates on this board. My standard kit has a baseweight (everything except food/water) of 8.5 lbs. So, for example, a 4 day trip like the 2016 meet-up will start out just over 14 lbs total. I've mentioned this before, but I've also been conceptualizing an extreme/super ultra-light system (XUL/SUL) that could be used for 2-3 day strips. These would be primarily fishing surgical strikes, where I would hike maybe 15-20 miles in, fish for a day, then walk back out.

Right now, with a 25 degree quilt & oversized tarp, my baseweight for the XUL/SUL system is 6.5 lbs. Add 2-3 lbs of food and I'm under 10 total. If I make a 35-40 degree quilt, and reduce another tarp I have (or buy a small cuben tarp), I think I could get the base down to 5.5lbs. As usual, it needs to be said that the name of the game here are materials: the highest possible loft down to provide the greatest warmth/weight ratio, the most effective water-proof material to stay dry, and the strongest/lightest nylon (typically expensive military grade) to carry all this stuff.

Here's a photo of my 35-50L regular pack that can be expanded to carry up to 25-30lbs. I've got it kitted out Joad style - including an additional sleeping pad + 3/4 season tent - for a Whitney hike I'd like to do later this week (after the storm clears out). I'll be camping overnight @ 12.2k on 3-4' of snow, so I need to haul the extra gear:

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Here's a shot of my new XUL/SUL 25-30L pack that I sewed up last week (all my primary gear is MYOG) - it weighs 6.5oz, yet could easily carry 20 lbs if need be without any material stretch/strain/tear. Note the lack of hip belts, sternum strap or back pad. None of those features are necessary if the load is under 10 lbs:

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AlmostThere
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Re: too many LOOP trip requests

Post by AlmostThere »

I am perhaps unique - I routinely plan trips with anyone and everyone. I take backpacking class students, random strangers when I set up a trip on meetup.com groups, friends and hiking buddies. I am often getting a permit for a large group and less often for just two or three people. I hike with UL, midweighters, heavy weighters and OMG-why-did-you-bring-that-ers. Every once in a while I get someone with a Jansport book bag and three ancillary random bags hanging off her arms, and a six pound cheap sleeping bag dangling from the Jansport and swaying like a pendulum....

It's common for folks to assume age has something to do with speed. Younger folks assume that because I plan what looks to them like a really strenuous trip that I am faster than I am - I usually trek along at the same pace, 2 mph, regardless of uphill, downhill or level, unless there are stupid steps that make me raise a knee above the hip -- and older folks assume I am faster than them, when often they are retired and able to hike a bazillion miles a week, making them so much more speedy than me. The younger sometimes crash and burn, because while they can sprint I can hike them into the ground if their feet have not walked many miles. They'll burn up the trail for about four miles and then I pass them, and hold steady in the lead, offering them blister care if they need it.

Guys older than me with traditional weights have kicked my adz on 5000+ foot in a single day gains. Girls less than half my age have folded and whimpered and whined and I ended up carrying their junk for them walking them back along the two miles they managed to get from the car. Rotund individuals with the muscle tone of comatose inpatients have outhiked entire groups of veteran hikers.

It really doesn't pay to generalize. I explain to the backpacking class that our trip will be frustrating to some of them, but the real goal of the class isn't to do miles or see great sights, it's to get out and use gear together and receive instruction, so if they end up feeling like we stopped hiking too soon, don't sweat it. Usually there's someone in the class who feels like dying shortly into the hike, regardless of how much weight they don't have.

I am suspecting, more and more, that belief has a lot to do with it. I decided fairly early on that I was going to see how it was for me -- I didn't go out there believing I would be cold, I went with an open mind. Most of the time, I am never cold. Other women I've hiked with who repeatedly state that they are "always cold" get into layers of insulation early, put on gloves, hats, scarves, bust out chemical heat packs -- I have Reynauds and I don't doll up the way they do. And then there are times I go out hiking and not feeling at all limited, and doing a twelve mile day without issues. The next weekend I find myself wanting to sit down after a mile, feeling as tired as I did the evening before because I kept thinking about being exhausted from the work week and did so all the way to the trailhead. On outings where I am tired in the car and focus on feeling energized once I start hiking -- guess what happens?

And then there's the beliefs we hold about gear. We all know, for example, that a tarp is fine most of the time (barring those weeks of mosquito hordes) in the Sierra -- and yet those times I cowboy camp with the women's backpacking group, there's ladies gasping and worrying about me getting eaten by a bear, bitten by a snake, getting bug bites -- I sleep like a baby and I haven't had animal encounters (other than my not noticing a hole in tree roots and getting a mouse drive-by across the chest, which I blame myself for - it was his front door I was blocking). I gave hammocks a chance, and they worked out fine -- I'm not dogmatic about them, I just sleep better in them. Whereas the guy I loaned my entire setup to was practically talking himself out of liking it while we were packing for the trip.

Not saying that belief makes the difference between something working for someone and not working at all -- there are gear items that incontrovertibly and empathically do not work for solid reasons for people. I will not be one of those who wears boots in the summer, for example, because I tried it and was miserable -- I started out thinking as everyone seems to, that hiking boots are necessary. I think I incurred damage to the foot because I kept trying to believe it and kept trying to use boots for too long, in fact.

In any case, finding the right hike for yourself does take some experience in backpacking. Or the right experienced backpacker to help you take apart what your real needs are, versus what your perceived needs are. And what you want is sometimes quite different than what you need -- I planned an ambitious trip for someone to their specifications, that they were unable to do, but I built contingencies into the itinerary based on what I knew about him -- he is one of those who has a strong "want to" that sometimes clouds that self awareness that might otherwise shift his plan to something he can actually do. Peak fever isn't just for peak baggers. I've been on a loop with a group and had the task of deciding whether forward or back is the better choice. I'd hazard a guess that for someone who hasn't done any backpacking at all, a simple out and back is always the better choice.
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