Anybody see this?

Grab your bear can or camp chair, kick your feet up and chew the fat about anything Sierra Nevada related that doesn't quite fit in any of the other forums. Within reason, (and the HST rules and guidelines) this is also an anything goes forum. Tell stories, discuss wilderness issues, music, or whatever else the High Sierra stirs up in your mind.
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freestone
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Re: Anybody see this?

Post by freestone »

Bikers on the JMT? Yes, that will be their first big challenge if they get privileges but it's not the best tool for the job, and they will likely be carrying the bike on long stretches. How much fun could that possibly be?

I'm also visualizing pack horses with Tule bike racks! The ugliness of bikes on the JMT and PCT is endless.

And the Sustainable Trails Association, who are they trying to fool with all that gloss? Please visualize Mr. Smilie gagging on the spoon.
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cefire
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Re: Anybody see this?

Post by cefire »

cmon4day wrote:I really don't see the problem with MTB's in the wilderness. Everyone here on this forum loves the mountains for the solitude, scenery and adventure. What makes a person who loves to ride any different.
What makes a person who likes to ride their motorcycle any different? Their convertible car, is that any different? At some point, you've got to propose where the 'line' should be drawn and, more importantly why. In contrast, all that you currently propose is that the line be shifted just enough to add one more group.
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rlown
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Re: Anybody see this?

Post by rlown »

source: http://www.wilderness.net/NWPS/wildView ... nt&WID=344

Just an example:
Area Management

The Maroon Bells-Snowmass Wilderness is part of the 109 million acre National Wilderness Preservation System. This System of lands provides clean air, water, and habitat critical for rare and endangered plants and animals. In wilderness, you can enjoy challenging recreational activities like hiking, backpacking, climbing, kayaking, canoeing, rafting, horse packing, bird watching, stargazing, and extraordinary opportunities for solitude. You play an important role in helping to "secure for the American people of present and future generations the benefits of an enduring resource of wilderness" as called for by the Congress of the United States through the Wilderness Act of 1964. Please follow the requirements outlined below and use Leave No Trace techniques when visiting the Maroon Bells-Snowmass Wilderness to ensure protection of this unique area.

General Wilderness Prohibitions

Motorized equipment and equipment used for mechanical transport is generally prohibited on all federal lands designated as wilderness. This includes the use of motor vehicles, motorboats, motorized equipment, bicycles, hang gliders, wagons, carts, portage wheels, and the landing of aircraft including helicopters, unless provided for in specific legislation.

In a few areas some exceptions allowing the use of motorized equipment or mechanical transport are described in the special regulations in effect for a specific area. Contact the Forest Service office or visit the websites listed for more specific information.

These general prohibitions have been implemented for all national forest wildernesses in order to implement the provisions of the Wilderness Act of 1964. The Wilderness Act requires management of human-caused impacts and protection of the area's wilderness character to insure that it is "unimpaired for the future use and enjoyment as wilderness." Use of the equipment listed as prohibited in wilderness is inconsistent with the provision in the Wilderness Act which mandates opportunities for solitude or primitive recreation and that wilderness is a place that is in contrast with areas where people and their works are dominant.
Wilderness-Specific Regulations

Wilderness managers often need to take action to limit the impacts caused by visitor activities in order to protect the natural conditions of wilderness as required by the Wilderness Act of 1964. Managers typically implement 'indirect' types of actions such as information and education measures before selecting more restrictive measures. When regulations are necessary, they are implemented with the specific intent of balancing the need to preserve the character of the wilderness while providing for the use and enjoyment of wilderness.

The following wilderness regulations are in effect for this area.Not all regulations are in effect for every wilderness. Contact the Forest Service office or visit the websites listed for more specific information about the regulations listed.
I've seen Rangers take action in Moke against such incursions. I do not disagree with their choices. Ranger Rick was starting to bug me a bit as he showed up all the time near Round Top and Plasse's trail. :)
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Re: Anybody see this?

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Motorized equipment and equipment used for mechanical transport is generally prohibited on all federal lands designated as wilderness. This includes the use of motor vehicles, motorboats, motorized equipment,bicycles, hang gliders, wagons, carts, portage wheels, and the landing of aircraft including helicopters, unless provided for in specific legislation.
These are the two sentences I found most relevant. Thanks for posting, Russ.

I Googled the Sustainable Trails Association and their only listing is the Facebook page. However, there is the Sustainable Trails Coalition, which is a 501(c)(4) organization engaged in lobbying to relax the rules for mountain bikes in wilderness areas. Since they are a 501(c)(4) they don't have to list their donors.
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rlown
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Re: Anybody see this?

Post by rlown »

Another good use of a trekking pole. right into the spokes. :) front wheel.
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Re: Anybody see this?

Post by cmon4day »

cefire wrote:
cmon4day wrote:I really don't see the problem with MTB's in the wilderness. Everyone here on this forum loves the mountains for the solitude, scenery and adventure. What makes a person who loves to ride any different.
What makes a person who likes to ride their motorcycle any different? Their convertible car, is that any different? At some point, you've got to propose where the 'line' should be drawn and, more importantly why. In contrast, all that you currently propose is that the line be shifted just enough to add one more group.
cefire,

Motorcycles, convertible cars, are not human powered activities. There in lies your "line".
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TehipiteTom
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Re: Anybody see this?

Post by TehipiteTom »

LMBSGV wrote:As a long-time resident of first Fairfax and then West Marin, I’ve been in the middle of the mountain bike-hiker-equestrian wars since the beginning. My first encounter with a mountain bike was Joe Breeze riding one of the first “clunkers” on a trail in Fairfax. Due to my extensive experience with bike-hiker encounters, I am completely opposed to mountain bikes in designated wilderness. For all the reasons stated in other posts, bikes on wilderness trails is a disaster. One of the biggest problems for the Marin County Parks department are all the illegal single track trails built by bikers in areas with extensive networks of fire roads where bikers can ride legally. (Within a mile of my house, I know of at least three illegal single tracks.) Imagine what will happen in wilderness areas with bikers building illegal trails.

Unfortunately, there is a rather pushy segment of the mountain bike community that will not give up on their push to get bikes in wilderness areas. Currently, the Marin Parks department is having meetings on rules for the parks and open space and the bikers show up in force, verbally intimidating anyone who disagrees with them. They simply do not perceive the incompatibility of a bike with wilderness or even most trails. “Erosion caused by bikes? Hikers run down? What are you talking about? We should be able to go anywhere we want.”

It is time for the National Park Service and Forest Service to state that mountains bikes will never be permitted in any designated wilderness and that the discussion is closed. No further comment.
Amen to this. Anyone who has witnessed the behavior of mountain bikers in the Bay Area is likely to be skeptical of allowing them in the wilderness.

On a practical level, the extended range of mountain bikes would cause real degradation of the wilderness. Just look at the condition of any easily accessible campsite in any popular wilderness area, then think about making access easier deeper into the wilderness, and you'll see what I mean.
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Re: Anybody see this?

Post by Pietro257 »

TehipiteTom wrote:
LMBSGV wrote:As a long-time resident of first Fairfax and then West Marin, I’ve been in the middle of the mountain bike-hiker-equestrian wars since the beginning. My first encounter with a mountain bike was Joe Breeze riding one of the first “clunkers” on a trail in Fairfax. Due to my extensive experience with bike-hiker encounters, I am completely opposed to mountain bikes in designated wilderness. For all the reasons stated in other posts, bikes on wilderness trails is a disaster. One of the biggest problems for the Marin County Parks department are all the illegal single track trails built by bikers in areas with extensive networks of fire roads where bikers can ride legally. (Within a mile of my house, I know of at least three illegal single tracks.) Imagine what will happen in wilderness areas with bikers building illegal trails.

Unfortunately, there is a rather pushy segment of the mountain bike community that will not give up on their push to get bikes in wilderness areas. Currently, the Marin Parks department is having meetings on rules for the parks and open space and the bikers show up in force, verbally intimidating anyone who disagrees with them. They simply do not perceive the incompatibility of a bike with wilderness or even most trails. “Erosion caused by bikes? Hikers run down? What are you talking about? We should be able to go anywhere we want.”

It is time for the National Park Service and Forest Service to state that mountains bikes will never be permitted in any designated wilderness and that the discussion is closed. No further comment.
Amen to this. Anyone who has witnessed the behavior of mountain bikers in the Bay Area is likely to be skeptical of allowing them in the wilderness.

On a practical level, the extended range of mountain bikes would cause real degradation of the wilderness. Just look at the condition of any easily accessible campsite in any popular wilderness area, then think about making access easier deeper into the wilderness, and you'll see what I mean.
Amen to this again. I live in San Francisco and occasionally enjoy day hikes in Marin County, where trail bikes are a menace. I would hate to see them in wilderness areas.
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Re: Anybody see this?

Post by kpeter »

Reading that paragraph of the Wilderness Act was interesting. Not only are bicycles banned, but other mechanical devices like "portage wheels."

I am reminded of what we learned about Duck Lake on this forum when I came across the memorial to a fisherman that had been placed there, and his grandson posted here to tell us about his history. That family carted an aluminum boat in to Duck Lake over Duck Pass using some sort of contraption, and left the boat at the lake until Wilderness designation forced it out. I imagine it was some sort of portage wheel.

If bicycles are allowed in, then why not portage wheels?

The one saving grace is that the Forest Service does such a bad job with trail maintenance that the jackstraw will make bicycles and portage wheels miserable on all the side trails. But what about those trails that are well maintained? I think the JMT will be a particular problem, since it is so meticulously groomed by volunteer groups. What do you say, Rogue, will the volunteers who extract every rock and cut every deadfall and projecting bush on the JMT want to be quite so thorough if they know they are grooming it for the easier use of mountain bikes?
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Re: Anybody see this?

Post by Shawn »

Well kpeter, according to the draft bill, they would be allowed.

(b) Activities involving “human-powered recreation” and derivative forms of this term generally mean those of the following types:
(1) Quiet activities undertaken through the exertions of a living being, including mountain climbing, rock-climbing, cliff-scaling, hiking, running,
jogging, camping, orienteering, backpacking, bicycling of all types, bouldering, unicycling, hunting, fishing, skiing, snowshoeing, boating,
paddling, kayaking, canoeing, skateboarding, and geocaching. Such Drafter’s note: see also § 201(c)(2), pertaining to activities permitted in
the National Wilderness Preservation System. D R A F T Human-Powered Wildlands Travel Management Act of 2015 v13 2015-09-09 3
activities may employ ancillary mechanical, electronic, or electrical equipment, such as hunting with a game cart or carrier, riding a bicycle, or
using a pedal-driven kayak or boat, wheel-supported backpack, springequipped walking stick, or global positioning system receiver. They do not
include power-assisted propulsive activities, such as riding a bicycle with a small electric motor.


E.g. "wheel supported backpack"

The text of the proposed bill is so egregious with its manipulative wording and misstatement of facts. What a load of baloney.

http://fcdn.mtbr.com/attachments/new-me ... -09-09.pdf
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