when will the smoke stop in the eastern sierra???

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Dragonfly
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Re: when will the smoke stop in the eastern sierra???

Post by Dragonfly »

Just to kindly remind folks...nobody 'let' fires such the Zaca and Rough burn. When fire meets landscapes as dry, steep and overgrown as the ones hosting those conflagrations, nothing can stop them. You can only get out of the way. There are currently over 2000 firefighters and upwards of 16 aircraft (including heavy helitankers, a DC-10 and 2 to 4 C-130s) battling the Rough every day. But other than keeping it away from structures, there is not much they can do to affect its course or duration.

It's when conditions are wetter and more favorable that fires are ALLOWED to burn, when they can clear out overgrowth without fire effects being too severe/unmanageable. Is it an exact science? No. Have mistakes been made? Of course. But unless we let some natural fires go when conditions seem right, the unnatural overgrowth will only continue to build in our forests. And these forests will continue to give us Zaca Fires, and Rim and Cedar and Rough Fires, with increasing frequency.

Unfortunately, there will still be plenty of smoke in mid-September. Though they're gaining ground on Rough, the show is far from over.
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dave54
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Re: when will the smoke stop in the eastern sierra???

Post by dave54 »

No, the current large fires were not used a prescribed natural fire. They were actively suppressed from the beginning. However, there has been a change in strategies in the past few decades. The so called ’10 AM policy’ was abandoned in the early 1970s. Unless a fire starts adjacent to or within a community or other high value resource area (where it is aggressively attacked) an appropriate level of response is determined. Fires starting in a remote area with no high value resources and in the late Fall with rain predicted may get two guys in a pickup truck, where the same fire next to homes in mid-July gets all kinds of equipment dispatched.
If the initial attack is unsuccessful and the fire escapes becoming large, strategic planning kicks in to determine exactly how and where it is to be managed. Portions of the fire edge adjacent to communities get lots of attention, of course. The portion running up a mountainside away from the homes gets a different consideration. An indirect strategy is usually used. A strategic ridgetop or road is selected and the fire is allowed to run to that point where it is more easily stopped. This may be several air miles away if the intervening ground is steep and roadless. When you read the fire write-ups for Alaska or Nevada and see the size is, for example, 250K+ acres, this is most likely what they fire managers are doing – letting it burn to a road, ridge, or river many miles away.
The problem with just letting fires burn is backcountry fires do not stay in the backcountry, and cool dry weather does not stay dry and cool. One study determined of the 25 most destructive fires in California history, in terms of property damage, 18 started more than 3 miles from the nearest dwelling. It is far easier to stop a ¼-acre fire right after it starts than stop it at 10000 acres two weeks later. Given the recent phenomenon of ‘trial by social media’ a decision by a land manager to let a fire burn because conditions are mild and it is in a remote corner of the forest, may end his career a month later when the same fire is now burning homes. We see this now in newspaper editorials urging to let fires burn ‘in the remote backcountry’. The same newspapers call for a manager’s head on a platter later in the year when an allowed to burn fire (a good sound decision at the time) is now threatening the town. Therefore, managers make the safe decision to stop it now. The media and public (thus elected officials) are very unforgiving of good decisions with bad outcomes.
In 2002, a late season September lightning storm started a fire in the Bob Marshall Wilderness in Montana. Since the Bob has had a fire management plan (let burn) in place since 1972 and the Fall rains were expected any day, it was allowed to burn its natural course. Well, the Fall rains did not start as expected. October came, and the fire kept burning. Adjacent drainages were on fire. It was now burning in one of the local Sierra Club chapters favorite haunts, so they began clamoring for the Forest Service to put it out. The FS stuck to their guns and let it burn. The Sierra Club and other ‘environmental groups’ started pressuring the governor, Senators, and other politicos to intervene. The pressure even went to the White House. The rains finally started in November and the whole controversy faded away. Except it did gain some immortality, as the event was incorporated into a subplot on the TV series ‘West Wing’.
I have personal experience with a similar fire. A lightning caused fire in Idaho was in a remote section of Wilderness far from any trail or camp, but it was aggressively suppressed. Why? A nearby stream and lake was a favorite fishing destination of the local Congressman’s Chief of Staff. The C of S learned of the fire, who called his boss, who called the Forest Supervisor. So it was suppressed. I was a camp support person working Logistics.
Just because a fire is remote, far from homes, does not mean it will cause no damage. Municipal Watersheds are high value resource even with no homes or infrastructure. Power lines and electronic sites are valuable (a county wide EMS or public safety comm link inoperative or a town with no electricity for a few weeks?), as well as endangered species habitat and fisheries. Even views from the nearby tourism dependent town have economic value. A smoky pall hanging over an area for weeks/months will have a major economic and health impact far from the source.
I fully support the concept of allowing natural fires to burn; I did my grad work in modeling long-term fire behavior and wilderness fire risk assessment. The practicality of it is another matter. There are major downsides and risks. Too many people ignore or downplay the negatives. The impacts to humans must be considered with the ecological changes.
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zacjust32
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Re: when will the smoke stop in the eastern sierra???

Post by zacjust32 »

+1
Last edited by zacjust32 on Sat Sep 12, 2015 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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franklin411
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Re: when will the smoke stop in the eastern sierra???

Post by franklin411 »

Dragonfly wrote:Though they're gaining ground on Rough, the show is far from over.
I wouldn't say that they're gaining any ground, but I agree that it's far from over. The fire went from 60,000 acres to 80,000 acres just in the last 3 days. They've protected what they're going to protect (which is the 25% containment figure), and the rest is going to burn until it decides it's done. Can't really expect anything more, since the whole Western US is on fire, budgets are exhausted, and personnel are stretched well beyond reasonable limits.

Luckily, we have global cooling. Just imagine what it would be like if the world was actually warming! It could start costing us money. :o
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Re: when will the smoke stop in the eastern sierra???

Post by Dragonfly »

dave54,

Based on your reply, I'm not sure we're disagreeing at all. The price of letting backcountry fires burn can indeed be high. I have seen this up close and personal: the economic costs to businesses, jeopardy to the careers of intrepid managers trying to do the right thing for forest health, dealing with a larger fire + problems down the road such as flooding and erosion...and, of course, the politics that are as much a part of fire as the smoke itself, and often far more dangerous. If you're a management officer, there is absolutely nothing easy about making the call to let it burn, even in these enlightened times.

franklin411,

If it helps, a lot of the acreage increase is due to firing operations to secure control lines - still a work in progress. Cooler temps and higher humidities have helped the crews push towards containment in the Hume, Balch Camp and Blackrock areas. The fire is still marching on in Cedar Creek, however, and possibly Little Tehipite Valley. At least we don't have outrageous temps or winds expected in the next few days.

*Knocks on wood. Or at least, wood-like desktop laminate.*
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maverick
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Re: when will the smoke stop in the eastern sierra???

Post by maverick »

I hope something will be left of the Monarch Wilderness, the Slide, and Swamp Lakes are such pretty, and isolated areas. :(

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OzSwaggie
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Re: when will the smoke stop in the eastern sierra???

Post by OzSwaggie »

Thanks Dragonfly and Dave54 for explaining the "let it burn" policy, which is oftentimes (if I understand correctly) a matter of necessity and resourcing, but sometimes a matter of philosophy based on ecological knowledge/beliefs.

I can't help but wonder how it is known how much fire is "natural"? - given climate change and the number of fires (eg the Rim fire, and our Black Saturday fires) which are started by humans? I wonder if there might not be a point at which the rate of burning, or area burned each year, could be called "excessive" and this might affect the "let it burn" policy ?
Last edited by OzSwaggie on Sat Oct 10, 2015 1:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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dave54
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Re: when will the smoke stop in the eastern sierra???

Post by dave54 »

OzSwaggie wrote:...
I can't help but wonder how it is known how much fire is "natural"? - given climate change and the number of fires (eg the Rim fire, and our Black Saturday fires) which are started by humans? I wonder if there might not be a point at which the rate of burning, or area burned each year, could be called "excessive" and this might affect the "let it burn" policy ?...
That is the crux of the issue!

Wildfire effects are both positive and negative, sometimes both simultaneously. Unfortunately, the relative weights of each are subjective values so the merits will be argued and debated heatedly by parties on all sides of the issue. In the words of one now retired Forest Service District Ranger "I know I made a good decision when all sides are equally mad at me."
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balance
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Re: when will the smoke stop in the eastern sierra???

Post by balance »

Here's a suggestion DAVELA. Try a trip from Kennedy Meadows into Emigrant Wilderness.

On Saturday morning Aug. 23 bright and early, I was at the Bishop Ranger station to get a wilderness permit. No luck. Too much smoke. Drove up to Mammoth. Smoke. :angry: On to Bridgeport. Local fire had closed a campground. Smoke. :crybaby:

Not giving up though. Checking the prevailing winds, I continued North over the Sonora Pass to Kennedy Meadows. Spent two nights at the little backpackers camp, then six great days in Emigrant Lake, Emigrant Meadow Lake, High Emigrant Meadow Lake. Bonus: The "trail" (be prepared for travelling cross country) from EL to HEML runs through a beautiful, isolated alpine valley.

Not exactly Eastern Sierra high country, but great nevertheless. Topped it off with a hot shower and excellent dinner with the friendly people at the Kennedy Meadows Resort. :)

Check to see if it's still clear up there, but it saved the day for me. Peace.
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Re: when will the smoke stop in the eastern sierra???

Post by DAVELA »

Thanks so far for all the replies...temps will be near 100 in bishhop at the end of the week :eek:
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