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Why Rockwell is Wrong about Giardia

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Re: Why Rockwell is Wrong about Giardia

Postby Colter » Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:28 pm

AlmostThere wrote:
Colter wrote:I think I've presented some new scientific perspectives.

You're free to think that.
That's very kind of you. :)

Look, there are many people who DO care what scientific research has to say about the topic, that is why if you Google Rockwell Giardia you come up with a couple hundred thousand results. Countless thousands of people, including myself, have made treatment decisions based on that paper. I ended up really, really sick in the Sierra as a result, beyond a reasonable doubt. I researched the science in Rockwell's paper and found errors, some of which I've pointed out here.

There are people who might not think it's worth discussing and that everything that needs to be said has been said. I disagree. My original post is not a rehash of the same old stuff for those who take the time to read it.

It's hard to imagine a more appropriate forum on which to discuss the Rockwell paper.



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Re: Why Rockwell is Wrong about Giardia

Postby rlown » Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:30 pm

Colter,

I'd love to see you on other threads here. If this is it, then that's just not enough. I filter, so no discussion necessary.

You are aware that the time most of us spend in the backcountry is well below the gestation period for Giardia, and we'd be in a doctors care by then, right?
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Re: Why Rockwell is Wrong about Giardia

Postby AlmostThere » Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:43 pm

Rehash away.

Scientific research on this subject is outdated by the end of the season, IMO. Single celled organisms will see population and location shifts as conditions change, and that is happening each year. The presence in a single pool one year says nothing about the chances of the same pool having a high number of any single celled bug in it the following year.

Until they come up with kits for hikers to take with them, and accumulate information as they come to water sources and log conditions at the time - scientific research means bupkiss to me. You need a lot more tests, over time, in a lot of locations, and measurements of conditions in the environment to boot.

Of course, if someone wants to hire me to do the research I'd be happy to set up a network of resupply points and spend several years crossing and recrossing and hiking north and south along all the trails of the Sierra Nevada - I'll be more than happy to do it.
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Re: Why Rockwell is Wrong about Giardia

Postby Colter » Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:11 pm

I will cease "talking to the hand" until when, and if, I detect some interest. :)
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Re: Why Rockwell is Wrong about Giardia

Postby SSSdave » Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:32 pm

Colter wrote:I will cease "talking to the hand" until when, and if, I detect some interest. :)


Read the threads Mav linked to. You are way late to the party and unlikely to influence any of us that don't usually filter because as noted above.

A long history of authorities and others with an agenda crying wolf too often. So I no longer trust anyone refuting Rockwell or presenting new negative evidence.

The active debate ran its course years ago.

Your arguments IMO are weak at best and arguing about those points on this board would be an unproductive exercise we don't care about. There is nothing you might say that would get me to enter a technical discussion.

Most of us that do not usually filter obviously have not been getting sick over years.

I don't want to bother pumping water if it is a waste of time and effort.

What the individual that doesn't filter doesn't do will not effect others.
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Re: Why Rockwell is Wrong about Giardia

Postby markskor » Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:45 pm

Agree with SSSave here...
Like many others here who get out into the wilderness quite often, I have not filtered Sierra water for 25 years - Never been giardia sick.
Maybe I have acquired natural immunity, maybe just lucky and/ or just drink smart, probably something to do with my parasite education - whatever.
HYOH and carry whatever floats yer boat.
Mountainman who swims with trout
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Re: Why Rockwell is Wrong about Giardia

Postby longri » Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:04 pm

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Last edited by longri on Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why Rockwell is Wrong about Giardia

Postby Colter » Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:34 pm

longri wrote:
Colter wrote:For example, Rockwell says that Sierra water is cleaner than San Francisco city water. Absolutely false. San Francisco water is run through a water treatment plant.


I found it surprising that the very first example you gave for a factual error in Bob Rockwell's paper is based on the odd assumption that municipal water treatment implies the elimination of Giardia. The lastest (2011) water quality report available online from the SFPUC lists maximum detected Giardia at 7 cysts per 100 liters. This isn't very different from the maximum 12 cysts/hL that Rockwell's paper referenced for year 2000.


You missed my point, the water is treated and irradiated. Note that they don't say viable cysts. The cysts are killed. Doesn't matter much how many dead cysts there are.

The new ultraviolet disinfection facility ensures over 99% reduction of Cryptosporidium and Giardia; That's not even counting the chlorine and chloramine and the fact that cyst viability decreases as time goes on.
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Re: Why Rockwell is Wrong about Giardia

Postby longri » Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:57 pm

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Last edited by longri on Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why Rockwell is Wrong about Giardia

Postby oldranger » Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:07 pm

WTF guys! You have gone beyond informing and just trying to win a point. Use a pm for this!

M
Mike

Who can't do everything he used to and what he can do takes a hell of a lot longer!
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Re: Why Rockwell is Wrong about Giardia

Postby longri » Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:37 pm

Oh, okay. I think it is a topic worth discussing. But I'll remove my previous posts.
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Re: Why Rockwell is Wrong about Giardia

Postby Colter » Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:03 pm

longri wrote:...I think it is a topic worth discussing...

Thanks, I do too.

This is a thread from Backpackinglight where I think everyone who was interested in the topic learned something. I know I did. It was a good exchange.
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin ... 127.77.115
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