Why Rockwell is Wrong about Giardia
- rlown
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Re: Why Rockwell is Wrong about Giardia
I really want to request this thread get locked unless someone comes up with a reason not to..
Russ
Russ
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Re: Why Rockwell is Wrong about Giardia
Thanks to both gdurkee and longri for talking science, even though we might disagree
I really appreciate you mentioning Bruce Bindner. His point on chlorination at the time of the original paper is key. Glad he recovered quickly. I got sick as a dog each time but each time made a rapid recovery after treatment.
longri, you said
Here's what I said in context: Rockwell says "One conclusion of this paper is that you can indeed contract giardiasis on visits to the high mountains of the Sierra Nevada, but it almost certainly won’t be from the water. So drink freely and confidently." I personally don't think that's a defensible statement based on my personal experience AND an overwhelming amount of scientific data.
Freely means Without restriction Remember the Derlet quote after spending 10 years studying water in the Sierra. What he has learned, after analyzing hundreds of samples dipped from backcountry lakes and streams, is that parts of the high Sierra are not nearly as pristine as they look. It has in fact been scientifically established that drinking untreated mountain water is an important cause of endemic infection. and that the infectious dose is low and that giardia is found in about 1/3 of tested water sources in the Sierra at the time his report was written. I think most experts in the field would say that the evidence is overwhelming in the sense that I intended, that his statement is indefensible as written.
Somewhere I've got a statement bookmarked where an exasperated backpacking CDC statistician was responding to someone who was saying "we just don't have enough data to know if there truly is risk from drinking untreated water." To paraphrase he was saying they DID know. They've got the stats to know that the risk is significant. That's why the say Do not swallow water while swimming in swimming pools, spas, interactive fountains, lakes, rivers, springs, ponds, streams, or the ocean.
I really appreciate you mentioning Bruce Bindner. His point on chlorination at the time of the original paper is key. Glad he recovered quickly. I got sick as a dog each time but each time made a rapid recovery after treatment.
longri, you said
Colter, that statement is clearly a gross exaggeration. If anything can be agreed upon it is that there is a dearth of solid data on this subject.Colter wrote:...an overwhelming amount of scientific data.
Here's what I said in context: Rockwell says "One conclusion of this paper is that you can indeed contract giardiasis on visits to the high mountains of the Sierra Nevada, but it almost certainly won’t be from the water. So drink freely and confidently." I personally don't think that's a defensible statement based on my personal experience AND an overwhelming amount of scientific data.
Freely means Without restriction Remember the Derlet quote after spending 10 years studying water in the Sierra. What he has learned, after analyzing hundreds of samples dipped from backcountry lakes and streams, is that parts of the high Sierra are not nearly as pristine as they look. It has in fact been scientifically established that drinking untreated mountain water is an important cause of endemic infection. and that the infectious dose is low and that giardia is found in about 1/3 of tested water sources in the Sierra at the time his report was written. I think most experts in the field would say that the evidence is overwhelming in the sense that I intended, that his statement is indefensible as written.
Somewhere I've got a statement bookmarked where an exasperated backpacking CDC statistician was responding to someone who was saying "we just don't have enough data to know if there truly is risk from drinking untreated water." To paraphrase he was saying they DID know. They've got the stats to know that the risk is significant. That's why the say Do not swallow water while swimming in swimming pools, spas, interactive fountains, lakes, rivers, springs, ponds, streams, or the ocean.
- rlown
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Re: Why Rockwell is Wrong about Giardia
Colter.. what do you desire from this thread? are we done?
- gdurkee
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Re: Why Rockwell is Wrong about Giardia
Que non, Monsouir! Merely a reference to the beloved Ask Dr. Science!gdurkee wrote:Wait, wait, wait there Dr. Science
It seems like that would qualify as snide. What do you think?
And with that, I retire from the field.
"Lone for an end!" cried Knight to steed,
Loosed an eager rein--
Charged with his challenge into space:
And quiet did quiet remain.
--Walter De La Mare
g.
- Colter
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Re: Why Rockwell is Wrong about Giardia
Why do you feel it's so important to shut down a thread that is relative to the high Sierra, a thread in which others want to participate, and a thread that is purely optional to read? You were trying to stop it from the beginning.rlown wrote:I really want to request this thread get locked unless someone comes up with a reason not to..
Russ
- rlown
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Re: Why Rockwell is Wrong about Giardia
well.. we have at least 4 threads on water treatment. and they haven't been tickled for a while. Is that a good start?
we read the thread.. but does it mesh into the overall site knowledge.. no. unless it's merged by admin or otherwise.
we read the thread.. but does it mesh into the overall site knowledge.. no. unless it's merged by admin or otherwise.
- RoguePhotonic
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Re: Why Rockwell is Wrong about Giardia
I have to seriously doubt that several backpackers come in a week in Mammoth with Giardia. It takes allot longer than most people spend on a single trip to take effect. Also that level of infection would prompt serious investigation into the problem.
- Colter
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Re: Why Rockwell is Wrong about Giardia
Why would a Dr. publicly go on record and say it if it wasn't true? Not only that, but I was one of those patients and I know of several other people who were, also. It's one of the most "popular" places for PCT hikers to get treated for giardia, and they, as often as not, get sick in the middle of nowhere.RoguePhotonic wrote:I have to seriously doubt that several backpackers come in a week in Mammoth with Giardia. It takes allot longer than most people spend on a single trip to take effect. Also that level of infection would prompt serious investigation into the problem.
Also, those cases wouldn't be investigated unless it was an outbreak: A disease outbreak is the occurrence of cases of disease in excess of what would normally be expected in a defined community, geographical area or season. Giardia is common, it happens every year, so a few backpackers a week wouldn't be an outbreak. Plus, giardia usually isn't reported at all. In that quoted physician's county (Modoc) no cases were OFFICIALLY reported in 2008-2010. Including my case.
- rlown
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Re: Why Rockwell is Wrong about Giardia
ok.. everyone.. just let colter answer the question.. what do you want from this thread?
- sparky
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Re: Why Rockwell is Wrong about Giardia
Just because people get giardia doesn't mean they got it from their drinking water.
If 1/3 of samples from sierra water have giardia than I am obviously immune. Yay!
This is getting silly
If 1/3 of samples from sierra water have giardia than I am obviously immune. Yay!
This is getting silly
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