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National Park Service in Violation of Wilderness Act

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Re: National Park Service in Violation of Wilderness Act

Postby rlown » Wed Mar 07, 2012 2:22 pm

as i get older, i'm coming to love the mule trek. I haven't been on one yet, except in 94 in the Yose Valley up to the falls. I've also followed a few up the the Vogelsang HSC. That is not pleasant.

Sorry, not joining. Most of the packers I've met are really great, and if you look at the trail work, they're built for mules.. go figure. humans don't need cobblestone approaches..



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Re: National Park Service in Violation of Wilderness Act

Postby Bad Man From Bodie » Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:28 am

Not joining either! I support the back country horseman’s association and will fight for my heritage and traditional use of stock in the high country. It’s a heritage that was passed to me and one that I will pass to my children regardless of groups like the HSHA. My kids will know how to pack in the high country.
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Re: National Park Service in Violation of Wilderness Act

Postby oldranger » Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:50 am

Well I'm not joining nor am I joining HSHA (I thought it was HSSA). When a stock ranger for NPS the worst stock user in my area was the President of the local branch. Always left a mess, grazed his stock when it was not legal, cut trenches in a meadow to make sure his tent stayed dry, tied his stock to trees leaving huge donuts dug out around them. Didn't get support from the Chief Ranger to deal with the problem. Next year I decided not to return to the park (but not because of this.) Actually I wouldn't join any organization that would have me! Of course I have to questions Eric's judgement in letting me post, too!

Cheers
Mike

Who can't do everything he used to and what he can do takes a hell of a lot longer!
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Re: National Park Service in Violation of Wilderness Act

Postby mokelumnekid » Thu Mar 08, 2012 2:03 pm

Bad Man- no one here is talkng about a ban on these activities. Oldranger the "president of the local branch of the HSHA" being an abusive stock user somehow doesn't ring true to me. Can you provide more details?
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Re: National Park Service in Violation of Wilderness Act

Postby Bad Man From Bodie » Thu Mar 08, 2012 3:29 pm

Hey Moke, hope youve been finding some good water for paddling this winter!

I know no one is proposing an all out ban on stock - As you know, Im just a bit sensitive to these issues. Im more concerned about additional regulations that can’t be enforced and the ripple effect these regulations have on all user groups and resources, let alone the tax payer dollars wasted on fighting all these frivolous law suits from NGO groups such as the High Sierra Hikers Association (Sheesh).. I really take offence and red flags go up when someone makes a statement like “We want the agencies to end the ongoing exploitation of the High Sierra by commercial businesses, many of whom routinely violate wilderness regulations with impunity.” That’s quite a statement considering the amount of commerce generated through tourism in the Sierra, of which outfitting is absolutely a part of. That statement pretty much sums up what the agenda is and I don’t subscribe to that train of thought. I still think people have the right to make a living in a tourist based economy. Lets not get in a philosophical debate over exploitation of natural resources for profit (its all tit for tat). What’s good for the goose isn’t good for the gander i.e. what’s good for one user group isn’t good for the other and that’s the rub. It has nothing to do with the environment, people just don’t want to share the trail with horse poop. Can you imagine what it would have been like to live in the Sierra 100 years ago. People would freak out if they knew!
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Re: National Park Service in Violation of Wilderness Act

Postby mokelumnekid » Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:16 pm

Bad Man- I hear you. I totally support packer access. One vexing thing about all this that everybody on all sides of these issues I've met have been GOOD people, hard working who all care about the mountains. And I especially respect that is part of our heritage. I can say with 100% certainty that I wouldn't have found a career in geology if my grandparents hadn't bought an old range cabin in Hermit Valley back in the 1940's, that allowed me access to the natural world through a personal connection. I wish everybody could walk in the others boots for a week.

Thanks for asking about the paddling- I've had many good days this Winter on the water (I got the crap beat out of me last Summer on a river here in Washington that required surgery, but I'm back). This summer going to run the Rogue again, but there probably won't be enough water for any action in Calif. so we'll packback around Glacier Divide instead, after a few days around Ebbetts pass. Cheers!
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Re: National Park Service in Violation of Wilderness Act

Postby atreehugger » Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:10 pm

To TahoeSarah:
Thanks for weighing in with the facts. Unfortunately, there are some that are not interested in the truth. They have their own self-interest agenda in keeping the present situation as is.

To Others:
Well, heres the fact: NO ONE IS TRYING TO TAKE AWAY YOUR HORSEY.
:soapbox:
As an avid backpacker, I have been quota'd out more times than I can remember...Piute Pass was one of them. (Try getting a walkin permit around a holiday weekend...you better have multiple backup plans and be flexible.)
Its amazing that in 1979 the quota for Piute Pass was 65 persons/day and today its 30. Thats a 54% decrease in available spots. But yet commercial packers have not had a similar reduction. Where is the fairness, the level playing field...this is an example of a "special interest party" getting preferential treatment.

As a proud member of the Sierra Club and other enviro groups, I will now be sending my check for $10 to join the High Sierra Hikers Assoc to protect the Sierra wilderness for my children AND yours. This issue has been educational...and by researching and spending some time reading the facts, I feel more informed on this subject. It appears others have not, and no doubt will continue to live in ignorance, and spread mis-information and rhetoric. :moon:
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Re: National Park Service in Violation of Wilderness Act

Postby mokelumnekid » Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:20 pm

Please t-hugger, you don't have to go there. Genuine respect is the pixie dust that makes it possible for people to go along and get along. You posted a provocative, informative and important thread that got a lot of discussion- people have different views that reflect the diversity of their back grounds. You did a good job of getting the ball rolling, please don't be surprised that folks will have different views. :)
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Re: National Park Service in Violation of Wilderness Act

Postby rlown » Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:21 pm

you and TSahara should probably put for your trail reservations ahead of time like we all do. Two years in a row.. got my reservation.

Be proud all you want about being a Sierra Club member. I think they're purposeful and just as evil as any other special interest group, some of which i belong to.. just not the SC.
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Re: National Park Service in Violation of Wilderness Act

Postby Wandering Daisy » Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:30 pm

Treehugger- you were beginning to get some respect and you just blew it. Those of us old enough to have seen how government and regulations work, are worried not about this particular law per-se but the tendency of unintended consequences. You certainly did not have to get so nasty. I personally have been up Piute Pass many times and have NEVER seen a horse. So the fact that the packers have the ability to get permits, that I agree are excessive, does not mean they are over-running the place. Honestly I have seen more "impact" by hikers. Impact to me also includes the visual impact of the 50 people I pass as I go up the trail, since there is no limit on day hikers. I DO NOT think there should be a limit on day hikers, but that could happen as an unintended consequence. Too bad you had to step into a pile of poo after that nice post explaining the hiker's group's viewpoint. I did appreciate the other nicer post.
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