Run-ins with authorities | High Sierra Topix  

Run-ins with authorities

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Re: Run-ins with authorities

Postby markskor » Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:11 pm

George,
Completely agree that you Rangers always have had a tough row to hoe; indeed Yosemite/ our Sierra desperately needs you guys and I personally respect everything your thankless job entails. Just wanted to say that outright.

That being said, tape or no tape, respectfully must disagree with a few items you talked about that day:
"You forgot to mention the bikers out in Stoneman Meadow with their motorcycles."
Quite possible that there were a few bikers in the crowds wearing colors...parked among the hippies.

"You seem to have missed several rangers who spent the previous day and the day of what became a riot out talking to people and asking them to leave the meadow because of the damage being done, the garbage being left and the overall effect of having 300+ people getting high and grooving in a fragile meadow in a National Park."

In the 4 - 5 hours we were out in the meadow the day before, I did not see one ranger come out there all day. The meadow was then legal open space - no ropes, many well worn paths/bike trails winding through...did not see any damage being done. Probably there was some trash strewn about, but distinctly remember our side (near the trees) discussing this very thing at the time and the majority making a concerted effort to police the area. BTW, what does "fragile meadow" actually mean?

"And the haze of THC may also have caused you to forget the warnings and orders to disperse delivered by bullhorn ahead of the "charge." This is all on film."


The bullhorn "warning" given was the designated signal to charge; there was no warning ahead of time. Much akin to the green light being a warning that a drag race is about to start.

"No question it was a bad day for NPS rangers and their image. It's likely it could have been handled much better but poor training on the part of the rangers and unreasoning defiance on the part of the gathering doomed the whole thing. Reasoning with the people in the meadow was not working."
Maybe naive back then but did not see any "reasoning" being done, at least not on our side of the meadow as we were all quite watchful of any authority figures coming out...fearing a bust. Nobody approached us or warned us that day, or the next day either...nobody.

Whatever...I readily admit that we were the most guilty party but no rationalization on anyone's part will ever convince me that the park was totally "innocent" that fateful day.

"By any standard you'd care to name, we have a much more open, enfranchised and freer society than, say, 30 years ago."

My God, that was 42 years ago now and you are indeed correct that our Yosemite is a much more enlightened, understanding place now than way back then, or maybe I have just wised up since 1970. Getting hit on the head by a charging horsemen wielding a baton will do that to you.
Mark
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Re: Run-ins with authorities

Postby oldranger » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:03 am

George, I've been waiting for you to step in, thanks! It is funny how THC impacts ones perception. I remember back around 70 or 71 when my ex and I used to regularly attend a gathering of people in Santa Barbara. We would carry on "intellectual discussions," drink Red Mountain wine ($1.80 per gallon jug), and inhale a little ... One time we were about an hour late in arriving and the discussion was in full swing and ... completely incomprehensible! What we could understand made no sense. At any rate that was the last of that gathering we attended as we realized we weren't quite as enlightened as we thought.

Mike
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Re: Run-ins with authorities

Postby rlown » Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:05 am

markskor wrote:
My God, that was 42 years ago now...
Mark


Quit it! you're making me feel old.. :D
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Re: Run-ins with authorities

Postby RoguePhotonic » Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:57 am

You have to obey all lawful orders, and you're not really in a position to determine what's lawful until the officer tells you why you've been pulled over. If it is unlawful, then you can complain, file a civil action, whatever you want.


No I do agree you must pull over if they have lights. I was lacking in information but your right that he must have or other wise why would he had pulled over at all. Indeed you must pull over but then at that point is where the laws come into effect. I don't know current California laws on the subject but in the past a driver was not required to exit the vehicle unless being placed under arrest. That being a reference to him being slammed against the car. At this point it would depend on why this officer says your being pulled over. If he states it's because of this offensive gesture then you can follow the fact that it wasn't illegal. Your key statement is you must obey "lawful orders" and you are not "required" to follow any non lawful ones. This line of action of course can get ugly in a hurry and that's why I said "if you want to go there". I personally am glad to die at any time in defense of liberty and that's why I take such a hard stance in these matters.

Reasoning with the people in the meadow was not working.


This is where it seems like a step is missing and that is simply to make arrests. If a crowd is breaking the law and you can't reason with them at all then the next step as an officer is to make an arrest isn't it?

I do have to point out that although I have a very hostile outlook against Police I do hold Rangers as a separate group and of course hold both back country and front country Rangers in totally different groups. The "gestapo tactics" IS common place among every day Police but certainly is not and is rare amongst Rangers.

I'd say anyone that claims we have a more free society today has not been paying attention though. This country is one step away from rearranging the stars into a swastika.
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Re: Run-ins with authorities

Postby rlown » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:23 pm

RoguePhotonic wrote:
I'd say anyone that claims we have a more free society today has not been paying attention though. This country is one step away from rearranging the stars into a swastika.


how so? you're how old? 26?
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Re: Run-ins with authorities

Postby gdurkee » Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:17 pm

I'd say anyone that claims we have a more free society today has not been paying attention though. This country is one step away from rearranging the stars into a swastika.


I second Russ' question. That's what I keep coming back to. With all this (mostly) right wing stuff about how we're losing our rights; one step away from a swastika on the flag (a swastika -- really!??!) etc., I've yet to hear a concrete explanation of what rights they (you) feel have been lost.

Specifically, what things do you feel you can't do now that you could, say 10 years ago? Has your freedom of speech been infringed? Have you been prevented from voting? Have you had police come into your house without a warrant (other than in hot pursuit in a felony -- that's allowed)?

Note: not what you feel are threats, but actual loss of actual rights in your lifetime, or even going back 50+ years. Facts. Facts would be nice.

The strength of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights is that while, yes, some of these rights have been threatened over the centuries, the protections are real and the threats have always been corrected. Always. Darned brilliant guys, those Founders... .

George
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Re: Run-ins with authorities

Postby balzaccom » Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:45 pm

OK--now we are way off topic...

But here are my thoughts:

1. Nowhere near a swastika, and yes, the far right and the far left both take extreme positions on this. But they are supposed to---they're extremists!

2. The loss of civil rights by ANY Americans is the loss of rights of all Americans. There are Americans on the no-fly list whose only crime is to share a name with someone else. Seems like with all of our sophisticated technology someone could do a better job than that.

3. I AM concerned about the kinds of surveillance that is now allowed under the patriot act. I believe that those ARE rights to privacy that we no longer have. The government now has the power to search and seize any thing at any time, as long as they can 'construct" a case of reasonable doubt about terrorism. That includes searching your computer to see if you have been researching or reading about any number of a wide variety of topics. Remember when librarians used to fight search warrants? Can't be done now, not under the Patriot Act.

4. I fly 125,000 miles a year or so. The TSA inspects my baggage any time they want, and for any reason the want. They can scan me, irradiate me, or pat me down any time they want. And no, they don't have to show reasonable cause.

Was that true a generation ago? No, it wasn't. And I wish I thought that the benefits outweighed the hassles...
Balzaccom

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Re: Run-ins with authorities

Postby RoguePhotonic » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:23 pm

how so? you're how old? 26?


27 and age is completely irrelevant. I know in todays world where people don't know what books are and probably cannot even read the extent of human history only extends within their own life time but for everyone else the information is there.

And I do agree that this is going way off topic. I mean we are moving into a line of conversation that can get very extensive and hostile in a hurry.

Also liberty is not a partisan issue so we don't need to bash left or right when the entire system is a paradigm intended to give the illusion of choice when both parties are bought and paid for by the same people. Two sides of the same coin...

balzaccom made some good points about how the most important aspect of liberty we have lost is our right to be safe against the government. That is after all what the constitution is really all about. Not what you are allow to do but what they are not allowed to do to you! Patriot Act, Military Commissions Act, the new NDAA. A provision that was just barely defeated in NDAA would have allowed the government to hold you indefinitely even if you were found innocent by trial.

As I said we could start going on pretty deep on these subjects and it's never constructive I have found.

But the Nazi reference is plenty accurate. The Muslims are the new Jews, 9/11 / Reichstag fire, Patriot act / Enabling Act, Homeland Security / Reichstag Security...

As for gestapo actions and policies by police forces would be another major subject of it's own but why don't you tell me why I completely hate police to the point it poisons my soul and I have never even been given a ticket for anything in my life. I don't even break any laws. So why should I hate them so much? Think about it...
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Re: Run-ins with authorities

Postby LMBSGV » Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:48 pm

My family on my father's side came from Germany. They had to go into hiding after the Reichstag fire. Their home was firebombed. It's a long story, but only by smarts, courage, Gestapo incompetence, and a lot of luck they managed to get out of Nazi Germany alive.

All of you talking about Gestapo tactics do not know what you are talking about. I suggest you either learn your history or kindly refrain from further ridiculous comparisons.
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Re: Run-ins with authorities

Postby mokelumnekid » Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:10 pm

Okay, enough with 42 years ago, we all agree that was a total c-f by all concerned, and what I regard as very poorly framed comparisons (sorry Rogue, I'm with LMBSGV on that). The TSA is not the USFS or the NPS. How are things TODAY? My previous post was based on my experiences in the last couple of decades, and my interactions with agency people in the field have been uniformly responsible. Sure there are occasional a-holes but I don't regard these as system wide abuses of my "liberty." That's just life, sometimes I have been an a-hole myself and I regret it. I don't agree with all the policies, but I firmly endorse an approach that I obey the laws and work with the everyday people who are tasked to enforce them anyway. The latest incident at Mt. Rainier, covered deeply in the Seattle press, was heart breaking. A tragic individual inflamed with their self-importance murdered a Ranger and a mother. 'Nuff said on that. I'm willing to extend my unconditional respect and support to EVERYONE who works in the field until they prove to me that they are not worth it. Because I work in the field too, and we all look out for each other. :paranoid:

Every time I have interacted with USFS and NPS people, whether getting my students permits to sample or providing housing, have been gracious. They have always tried hard to extend the agency mandate to cooperate, while at the same time trying to deal with the crazies, who often make campgrounds a living hell. Again, I lobby against some of the policies I don't agree with, but one-on-one, I give them a hearty welcome, exchange information and go on my way. :whistle:
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Re: Run-ins with authorities

Postby Baffman » Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:27 pm

Where is the "like" button for George's post? Oh yeah, wrong social network. =D> Maybe that'll work!
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Re: Run-ins with authorities

Postby Rosabella » Wed Feb 08, 2012 6:23 pm

Wow! VERY interesting read!

I guess it's been a while since I've been on the board... looks like I've got some catching up to do!
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