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Cattle or Trout

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Cattle or Trout

Postby quentinc » Sat Sep 24, 2011 4:17 pm

Easiest choice ever....




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Re: Cattle or Trout

Postby mokelumnekid » Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:42 pm

Agreed. No Brainer.
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Re: Cattle or Trout

Postby rlown » Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:46 pm

Wait.. Cant we introduce a Lahontan Hereford?
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Re: Cattle or Trout

Postby markskor » Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:32 am

Cryptosporidium parvum and Giardia sp. are recognized as severe pathogens capable of producing life threatening disease in animals and humans. Both parasites produce resistant stages that are passed with the feces of infected hosts. Transmission occurs either by the direct fecal–oral route or through ingestion of contaminated food or water.

Giardiosis is the most frequently diagnosed waterborne human disease in the USA. This fact, coupled with large-scale outbreaks of infections with waterborne Cryptosporidium sp., has focused attention on the identification of sources of contamination for these parasites in the environment.

Giardia duodenalis is a ubiquitous protozoan parasite that has emerged as a significant opportunistic human pathogen.
The estimated overall point prevalence of G. duodenalis was 19.1% in cattle... http://www.biomedcentral.com/1746-6148/5/37
This study suggests one out of five cattle (including those who range free in Sierra) host some form of Giardia. This coincides with lower but similar Giardia percentages found in other stock livestock – mules – 7 – 10%.

Deer are also suspect carriers with findings showing 3 - 7.1% of the deer population acting as Giardia hosts but still nothing compared to the high percentages another study found Giardia in cattle (approximately 6–82%) in North America. http://vdi.sagepub.com/content/11/1/65.full.pdf
Beaver are also known Giardia hosts but even though Beaver are water creatures, their numbers are small in most lower Sierra environments visited.

Conclusions: Giardia cannot survive freezing temperatures.
“Evidence shows that freezing destroys cysts. Like cryptosporidia oocysts, Giardia cysts cannot maintain their shell integrity through freeze/thaw cycles” http://www.atticacows.com/documentView.asp?docID=1542. As our Sierra reaches below 0º for months on end, either the Giardia scare is a myth or something man induced is assisting in spreading the disease. Cattle and mules (and their affinity to drop their biscuits near water) seem the most likely suspects.
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Re: Cattle or Trout

Postby oldranger » Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:12 am

Markskor included this in his otherwise very informative post:

As our Sierra reaches below 0º for months on end, either the Giardia scare is a myth or something man induced is assisting in spreading the disease.


Even assumming we are talking celsius this assumption ignores the facts that 1, the snow pack provides significant insulation and 2. Many giardia spores are waterborn and may entirely avoid freezing or subfreezing temps.

Mitigating my above obsevations and not included in Mark's is that giardia is heavier than water so in lakes there is a tendancy for the giardia to settle to the bottom.

However the risk is real. During my tenure as a BC ranger two other BC rangers acquired giardiasis in the Back Country of SEKI. Since I am older than dirt and expect that my ability to fight such an internal infestation is somewhat diminished I have become much more conservative in my treatment of water sources. There are times where I do not filter but I am now to the point where I filter my water about 60 to 70% of the time.

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Re: Cattle or Trout

Postby rlown » Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:15 am

I find Markskor's post somewhat amusing as I know he doesn't filter. He must be immune.

Doesn't really matter. Cattle v. trout.. Trout will win. Somebody better tell me what is native. Lot's of places we find trout could never have been native, regardless of being a "state fish."
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Re: Cattle or Trout

Postby markskor » Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:58 pm

rlown wrote:I find Markskor's post somewhat amusing as I know he doesn't filter. He must be immune. "

True enough, do not filter, at least not in the last 20+ years...do get out some too.
Amusing or not, as this topic weighed in originally as "trout vs. cattle", just adding my 2¢ here - a few more reasons against letting cattle graze in the alpine Sierra meadows.
I do seriously wonder though, with their short life spans, freezing conditions, and massive water run offs recently, where are all these infected protozoa coming from if not spread by cattle and mules?
Seems to me there are not that many other hosts in the higher elevations.
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Re: Cattle or Trout

Postby oldranger » Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:36 am

Markskor wrote:

I do seriously wonder though, with their short life spans, freezing conditions, and massive water run offs recently, where are all these infected protozoa coming from if not spread by cattle and mules?
Seems to me there are not that many other hosts in the higher elevations.


Some time in the past, in another thread, I noted and gdurkee confirmed that reasearch indicated that about 20% of the human population carry giardia and are non symtomatic. I always thought that might be the reason that I never became symptomatic. I have also considered that the introduction of 151 rum might have some medicinal properties.

Any how Mark I think people may be as import as cattle, especially in NPs, and you over estimate the cold in much of the Sierra, especially w. side. I never even had a full beer can expand over 6 winters that I left beer at Roaring River (albeit only 7300 ft.).

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Re: Cattle or Trout

Postby markskor » Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:57 pm

oldranger wrote:Markskor wrote:

I do seriously wonder though, with their short life spans, freezing conditions, and massive water run offs recently, where are all these infected protozoa coming from if not spread by cattle and mules?
Seems to me there are not that many other hosts in the higher elevations.


Some time in the past, in another thread, I noted and gdurkee confirmed that reasearch indicated that about 20% of the human population carry giardia and are non-symptomatic.
Any how Mark I think people may be as import as cattle, especially in NPs,

Mike


As Giardia is ubiquitous, found everywhere, research indeed confirms ~20% of the human population carries the protozoa (many sub-species found world-wide) non-symptomatically. Moreover, Federal water standards in most major cities, legally allow high but "acceptable" concentrations of this parasite in your pipes on a daily basis. (FYI, numbers found near San Diego for example, far exceed any High Sierra water supply ever measured, with the possible exception of Trail Camp.)

Everyone reading this is probably in contact with Giardia as we speak, but the concentrations from your water supply are far too small to infect anyone. BTW, I recall a quote about the water at Trail Camp, having to drink 100 gallons a day to have a 50% chance if getting it...whatever.

Seems the only way to become infected with Giardia is by drinking water with high cyst concentrations from somewhere, or through bad hygiene practices...usually the culprit.
You argue that BP's are possibly to blame? Yes they are, usually through their own poor personal hygiene...Maybe naive but doubtful that many backpackers intentionally defecate in the water; cows and mules do regularly. Seen a lot of mule scat on the trails this season. If 10% of those trail pucks at/in Illilouette Creek contain the cysts, if the Tuolumne and Valley mules have the same concentrations...well, you get my drift.

Cows also seem unable to keep their droppings out of the creeks.

Bottom line: Wash your hands well.
Nothing we can do about the mules in our Sierra;
Cows are another story.

Cattle or Trout? I vote Trout.
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Re: Cattle or Trout

Postby mokelumnekid » Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:25 pm

Recall that Stanislaus Nat'l. Forest, one of the heaviest- if not THE heaviest impacted cattle grazing admins south of Tahoe anyway (with Toyiabe running right in there), actually acknowledges this fact, but then argues that since it is common knowledge that cattle likely contribute to the problem, and that BP's know this- they will filter their water so that it isn't an issue to be considered in the assessment of impacts from grazing. :crybaby:

NOW...I'm not saying that grazing shouldn't be allowed (despite my personal prefs) as it is in the laws that allowed the Wilderness Act to be implemented. BUT the kicker was that grazing had to be managed as dictated by the impacts. In my experience Stanislaus, willfully ignores the recommendations of their own staff scientists as well as manifest documented violations of grazing impacts by others.

BUT..I do not want to demonize the families who have the cows, most of the ones I talk to are good law-abiding people who also struggle to get things right. Problem is that cows are stupid beasts, that love to wallow and will trample wet lands at every opportunity. Stanislaus is strung with an *amazing* amount of barbed wire even in the middle of nowhere, like the western front in WW I and still the cattle are "free range". If the grazing families could stop this behavior- they would. But they can't.

So the past meets the present- with better science and the population pressure along all the Sierra corridors, especially the northern trans-Sierra one Hwy 50 to Hwy 108, something will have to give. I'm kinda surprised that any of this is economic from the standpoint of grazing- even if you give the land away- which the Gubbermint is doing- I'm surprised that it is a break-even proposition. ](*,)
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