What does a govt shutdown mean for access to NF and NP?

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kpeter
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Re: What does a govt shutdown mean for access to NF and NP?

Post by kpeter »

TahoeJeff wrote:The Federal Government is in debt to the tune of $17 trillion! When will it stop spending money is does not have?
Some of my liberal friends would disagree with me, but I also would favor a balanced budget--primarily out of a sense of ethics. I think that has a lot in common with the conservation of land--both depend on ethical reasoning that thinks about the well being of future generations.
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Re: What does a govt shutdown mean for access to NF and NP?

Post by HikeSierraNevada »

I guess I stirred up some political potatoes trying give some perspective. Thought it was relevant since we all rely on government employees that manage the wilderness we all love to visit. Just saying, give the employees a break, it's not their fault. The continuing resolution the House refuses to vote on is at sequestration levels that are actually LOWER than what Paul Ryan proposed. So it's not about fiscal discipline and the Affordable Care Act is not going away. It's obvious what this is really about. If they held the vote, it looks like there are enough moderate adult Republicans to join up with the Democrats and end this shut down. That's the formula that ended the last manufactured fiscal crisis when we lost our credit rating thanks to this nonsense.
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Re: What does a govt shutdown mean for access to NF and NP?

Post by caddis »

HikeSierraNevada wrote:I guess I stirred up some political potatoes trying give some perspective. Thought it was relevant since we all rely on government employees that manage the wilderness we all love to visit. Just saying, give the employees a break, it's not their fault. The continuing resolution the House refuses to vote on is at sequestration levels that are actually LOWER than what Paul Ryan proposed. So it's not about fiscal discipline and the Affordable Care Act is not going away. It's obvious what this is really about. If they held the vote, it looks like there are enough moderate adult Republicans to join up with the Democrats and end this shut down. That's the formula that ended the last manufactured fiscal crisis when we lost our credit rating thanks to this nonsense.
You didn't answer my question again



I've avoided a partisan political discussion because playing the blame game is pointless on this forum, you would be wise to do the same.
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Re: What does a govt shutdown mean for access to NF and NP?

Post by caddis »

kpeter wrote:e
Since I expect them to follow all of these orders, I can't very well complain when they also follow an order to evict me from a closed park. To say otherwise would make me a hypocrite--
Your first example of following orders is simply doing the job they are paid for and enforcing legally created codes and regulations, the latter isn't.(at least no one has shown me where it is written that they must do this)

There is no hypocrisy
want my government employees to always follow orders when I agree with them, but I want them to bend the rules and look the other way when it is not convenient for me.
I want my government employees to be good American citizens first and not unthinking, uncaring robots serving, protecting, and defending a particular segment of government.
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Re: What does a govt shutdown mean for access to NF and NP?

Post by caplins »

There are a lot of suppositions by a bunch of people sitting in front of computers in this thread. Perhaps the next people to actually see some of the rangers in questions might try to get their opinions on the matters under discussion. The biggest issue I have in much of this chit-chat is simply their views are not represented in any meaningful way as far as I can tell. And I would point out that it is much easier to take black/white perspectives when the realities are ignored.
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Re: What does a govt shutdown mean for access to NF and NP?

Post by HikeSierraNevada »

caddis wrote:You didn't answer my question again

I've avoided a partisan political discussion because playing the blame game is pointless on this forum, you would be wise to do the same.
Caddis, I wasn't sure what examples you were asking for in your first reply, and now I have no idea what question you are referring to that I didn't answer. I'm willing to drop it now because I do agree that getting into politics on a hiking forum is not a good idea. It's hard to discuss a government shutdown without getting political. Better to agree to disagree and move on. Cheers.
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Re: What does a govt shutdown mean for access to NF and NP?

Post by HikeSierraNevada »

Caddis, I think I found your question, but it was in reply to someone else's post, not mine.

"Why should a government shut down necessitate shutting down a private enterprise that actually works?"

This is in regard to closing private campgrounds on National Forest or National Park property. First off, some of the best campground are actually run by government employees, so I disagree with your implication that only private enterprise works. As to your question, I suggest speaking with a Forest Supervisor, Park Superintendent, or a higher level Regional manager to get the best answer to your question. In the mean time, we can all speculate why, and I'll take my shot at it to avoid dodging your question. I'm guessing that all government contractors, including those that run campgrounds on public property, are subject to legal and financial oversight of some sort. We don't just hand over the keys to private contractors and walk away. There's a long history of fraud when that happens, which is why we have government workers removed from the profit motive. It might seem minor for campgrounds compared to a defense contractor or highway construction company, but it takes people at many levels of government to make the private-public system work correctly. We don't see those people working in the background to make things happen, but they're there. Except now, they aren't there.

That's my speculation to answer your question, but again, I recommend asking someone at the correct level of government to explain it. I hope this was neutral enough for everyone.

It's funny to read all this animosity toward government, government workers and their pension and whatnot, and then in the next paragraph read how they are expected to show up to work against orders from their boss so people can play in the forest. Insult them, hold their paycheck, and then demand they disobey orders to serve those same people. I think it's laughable, but hold your fire please.
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Re: What does a govt shutdown mean for access to NF and NP?

Post by zorobabel »

It's time for me to contribute to this thread.
On 10/4 the Lone Pine visitor center was gated closed.
On 10/4 and 10/6, one campground in Horseshoe Meadows had the entrance half of the road closed while the exit was not. The road was not gated, there was access to the Cottonwood Pass trailhead, and probably Cottonwood Lakes TH (I saw hikers going there). There were no notices prohibiting wilderness access (specific to the gov shutdown) at the visitor center or trailhead. I didn't see any rangers. I did my thing.
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Re: What does a govt shutdown mean for access to NF and NP?

Post by tim »

HikeSierraNevada wrote:Caddis, I think I found your question, but it was in reply to someone else's post, not mine.

"Why should a government shut down necessitate shutting down a private enterprise that actually works?"

This is in regard to closing private campgrounds on National Forest or National Park property. First off, some of the best campground are actually run by government employees, so I disagree with your implication that only private enterprise works. As to your question, I suggest speaking with a Forest Supervisor, Park Superintendent, or a higher level Regional manager to get the best answer to your question. In the mean time, we can all speculate why, and I'll take my shot at it to avoid dodging your question. I'm guessing that all government contractors, including those that run campgrounds on public property, are subject to legal and financial oversight of some sort. We don't just hand over the keys to private contractors and walk away. There's a long history of fraud when that happens, which is why we have government workers removed from the profit motive. It might seem minor for campgrounds compared to a defense contractor or highway construction company, but it takes people at many levels of government to make the private-public system work correctly. We don't see those people working in the background to make things happen, but they're there. Except now, they aren't there.

That's my speculation to answer your question, but again, I recommend asking someone at the correct level of government to explain it. I hope this was neutral enough for everyone.
Not taking sides, but here is a question that hasn't been asked. If Forest Service campgrounds are closed down, won't all ski areas that are on Forest Service land also be closed down? Maybe not so relevant in the first week of October (although I think some ski areas in the Pacific Northwest are supposed to be open very soon), but if we get a 1-2 month extension and then another shutdown, what happens then? Anyone remember what happened back in 1995 when I believe the shutdown was over Christmas and New Year? If the ski areas stayed open back then, I think the private companies running the campgrounds have every right to feel hard done by this time around.
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Re: What does a govt shutdown mean for access to NF and NP?

Post by oldranger »

Seems to me this discussion belongs in the campfire.

Mike
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Who can't do everything he used to and what he can do takes a hell of a lot longer!
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