Women in the Backcountry Don’t Need Your Help

[rlown]

sorry you didn't get the attention you wanted.

[MountainMinstrel]

I understand how you ladies feel about this (at least I think I do). Nobody wants unsolicited advise or un-needed help and I don't offer any unless asked. With that said, a person can only be held responsible for what they say and do, not for the way someone else perceives it.

For instance, I hold the door open for everyone, but a woman might perceive that as sexist and condescending. It may be her perception, but it is far from reality.

[balzaccom]

With that said, a person can only be held responsible for what they say and do, not for the way someone else perceives it.

I'll disagree with this statement. As every performer knows, communication is a two-way street, and if you know that what you are saying or doing is open to misinterpretation, then it's your responsibility to clear that up. If you care.

Calling women "girls" or "ladies" is a perfect example of this, especially if you call men "men" rather than "boys," or "gentlemen." You may think it is innocuous, but only if you haven't been listening at all.

[SSSdave]

I read the OP story again. As a decades experienced backpacker, I sometimes come across people that are obviously doing something poorly. For instance those who ask for directions or "how far is..". The below reflects on unsolicited advice as something that depends on circumstances, not to be generalized. Teachers are regularly in these situations as it is their job and learn how to do so tactfully wisely. Its an art. In any case the OP's issue is narrowly regarding doing so with gender that my point here to be clear is to remove general unsolicited advice from that discussion.

My usual input regardless of gender will ask them to pull out their map so I can show them instead of just blurting something out even though I could show them my map that is close at hand. I do so as an instructive lesson because many have their maps buried deeply somewhere in their packs sometimes to the point of not being able to find it. I suspect but don't yet know they apparently habitually don't use a map while on trails. Others that do pull out the map, I'll relate where we are, for example, "We are between Purple Lake and Lake Virginia before the pass at 3160 meters and watch as they look at their maps. Those that seem confused, especially those that look at their maps up-side-down are obviously not map users. I'll nicely calmly point out where we are on their map and show them what they need to know. I'll also provide some brief unsolicited advice about the value of hiking unfamiliar trails and routes with a topo map close at hand. Doing so is of course going to make most a wee embarrassed and that is a good thing because feeling emotions with activity reinforces neural ability to recall experiences.

Another like situation are those hiking in shorts and t-shirt during mosquito season that upon stopping while passing are swatting mosquitoes and red with welts as we briefly chat. Even though they probably won't bring up the matter, I may give them brief unsolicited instructive unemotional advice like, "When hiking during mosquito season like this, consider wearing clothing like I am wearing that mosquitoes probosci cannot penetrate through that fully covers one's exposed skin, and especially headgear that protects the neck and ears. Also 100% DEET on your still small areas exposed hands and face is sure to keep those areas free from bites though some may still land momentarily." Again some will feel embarrassed that is a good thing because the next time someone asks them to go hiking in bug season, they are more likely to approach such prepared.

Providing unsolicited advice for the above or a list of other things, is much like explaining to some newly hired engineer out of school how to connect an oscilloscope probe to some tiny microcircuit integrated circuit pin. If one does not use tact instructing a person, especially those with otherwise high end skills and education, they may not feel comfortable asking you, a relative technical peon, for help in the future which was a primary reason for my being in such technical lab environments. They may feel slightly embarrassed that their 4 years of schooling did not prepare them fully for whatever I showed them, but that slight emotion feeling so without my doing so emotionally or in a condescending way, will in the future orient them to seek out my advice in the future without fear as part of a helpful team. In that specific environment I also always cultivated a known attitude of not discussing such help with others so they would not fear hearing whatever from others.

[acorad]

Hiking skirts are not shorts. They are somewhat new. Think of them as similar to a kilt, that Scottish men wear, even in rain. A few men actually have done the entire PCT in kilts. There are also insulated hiking skirts, made of a synthetic similar to in jackets. There are also rain skirts that work well with knee high gaiters.

Saying someone will get hypothermia if not wearing rain pants in rain is not particularly true. The women said they were not cold and had dry clothing in their packs. Calling the women "girls" is a clue to why the women felt the guys were condescending. The older men probably would also be condescending to young people in general, including guys, who they probably would have called "boys". I think the women just thought they were being offered a brief friendly warm-up by a fire and hot drinks. Then came the "advise", really more scolding than advise. And yes, women probably are more sensitive with this because of implicit prejudice we encounter every day that shoots down our confidence. Young men are often so brazenly confident that no words from old men would likely bother them.

I agree that the situation may not exclusively be aimed at women. A bit of the "old school/new school" thing. My husband has a t-shirt given to him, that reads "Old Guys Rule"; I am sure many of you have seen them. Older backpackers can get really entrenched that their way is the only right way. I ran into the same thing in the late 60's/early 70's wen the "Yosemite Method" was in conflict with the post-WWII traditional climbing. I did not win any popularity with the founders of NOLS when I refused to use the issued gear and took all my own "new-fangled" climbing gear and rope.

Thank you Daisy, I really appreciate your reasoned response. fwiw I used "shorts" in my example as the roughly male equivalent to the female "hiking skirts" in the original story, in that both could easily be seen as lacking in appropriateness/safety in a pouring rain storm at almost 12,500 feet. And I don't in any way say that someone will get hypothermia if they don't wear rain pants, hence I rarely carry them myself unless the weather forecast is pretty bad.

Peace and happy trails!

[Wandering Daisy]

SSSDave- as well intentioned as your "teaching", it is condescending, regardless if aimed at men or women. My husband, whom I dearly love, does the same thing and it drives me nuts. I ask a simple question, and want a simple answer. No, he has to go into "teacher mode", as if I do not know what I am doing. The person on the trail who says "how far" wants a short answer, like "not far" or "quite a ways". That leaves them an opening to ask for more detail. They do not want a map reading lesson! They want an answer given to them as a peer, not a power show of "teacher" (the knowing one) to "student" (the ignorant one). And, the last thing a woman wants is for some strange man to comment on their clothing- that's creepy!

The "teacher" almost always comes across as a know-it-all, unless the "student" actually asks you to show them where they are on a map (which is really rare). Women are very sensitive to this because of historically and in our daily encounters, are implicitly viewed as "less than". Yes, "you can have this job if you are twice as good as a man". I actually had a professor who declared first day of class that the top grade a woman would get was a "B", because it is time woman learn that's the way it is out there in the real world. I got a B, one of the few I ever got.

Particularly, out in the wilderness, when you are on vacation, want to have fun, you do not want to be lectured to. Women have been socialized to be polite. Even when they seemingly act like they appreciate your "teaching", it is annoying. I do the "eye roll" in response.

Young women seem to get the brunt. They say older women become "invisible", one advantage of age. And I spend most of my backpack hours off trail or on less used trails, so really do not encounter people very often. And I have an obvious "do not tread on me" demeanor, so I rarely get interaction other than "Hi".

[TahoeJeff]

Eleanor Roosevelt: “Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent.”

[maiathebee]

With that said, a person can only be held responsible for what they say and do, not for the way someone else perceives it.

I'll disagree with this statement. As every performer knows, communication is a two-way street, and if you know that what you are saying or doing is open to misinterpretation, then it's your responsibility to clear that up. If you care.

Calling women "girls" or "ladies" is a perfect example of this, especially if you call men "men" rather than "boys," or "gentlemen." You may think it is innocuous, but only if you haven't been listening at all.

Exactly this. You can't divorce what you say from how it's heard. This is actually an entire thing in leadership / management---the Perception Gap. Intent is important, but so is impact.

Also, I just don't understand a lot of the defensive responses here. If someone told me something I did was bothering them or making them feel bad, I'd want to change my behavior rather than defend it with some sort of "well you're wrong for taking it that way" attitude. Empathy is cool.

[rlown]

Sorry. MountainMinstrel is right. Evidently, your perception is off.

[c9h13no3]

I was waiting for this thread to take off...

I love this debate:

Two people communicating, talker says "YOU'RE NOT HEARING ME RIGHT!" listener says "NO YOU'RE SAYING THE WRONG THINGS". Lulz.