High Sierra Topix

Wandering Daisy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 25, 2021 11:03 am Good leaders can be very subtle, but they have the ability to create group cohesiveness and harmony.

Often times, the leader is not the one in front. On a slightly different note, a person with good leadership skills yet is not the "leader" will often take on more subtle roles if there seems to be a need. I've been on several group hikes where I noticed a straggler and chose to hang back with them for support. I observed that same behavior in others as well. Hanging back and taking head counts from time to time, etc.

If I get the permit, I feel somewhat responsible. Last trip I went on with a group, I was on Metoprolol and Lisinopril. I intended to drop the drugs two days before the trip up Rafferty to Evelyn Lk. I forgot. I was the permit holder. I had to stop early as I had no heart rate capability and hiking slow. Told the other two to go ahead to fish as that was the point of the trip. Just told them no fires.. kind of a bummer as their stove failed.
I stayed behind solo as I wasn't going to die and had my inReach incase.

We all knew where we were and I stayed close below on the trail, but didn't feel like doing the scramble up to the lake.

Off the drugs now after retiring. Stress. I trusted my second to deal with the third's desire to do stupid.

There is an implicit chain of command that comes with groups. It works but you have to know your hiking partners and figure out the trust thing.

rlown wrote: ↑Mon Jan 25, 2021 12:02 pm If I get the permit, I feel somewhat responsible.

That's because you are, at least in the eyes of the issuing authority.

TahoeJeff wrote: ↑Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:15 am

balzaccom wrote: ↑Mon Jan 25, 2021 8:31 am I have never gone on a backpacking trip with a "group of equals..."

Wow!
Every time I go on a trip with a group, we treat each other as "equals".

As noted, I don't go backpacking in groups at all, unless it is a trail crew. One of the reasons we love backpacking so much is the quality time my wife and I get when we are out alone. I'm just not as motivated to go out with a group...

To be fair, my wife and I treat each other as equals in our group...the only way to stay married, as far as i can see.

As a rule I have limited backcountry trips to family and very few others. I did take a "newbie" on a trip a few years ago and the joke was that his wife paid me to kill him off by the difficulty of the trip. But I knew as a road bicyclist he was in good shape and he did great and grumbled considerably less than markskor my best hiking buddy ever. However in some ways I do not "play well with others," especially when off trail. If I am certain of the best route I will go my way and the others can follow or not. if I am not certain I will ask for others opinions. Actually Mark is the only one I remember consulting with. After 60 years of backpacking I have become pretty confident in my decision making. I didn't get this old, often out solo, without paying attention to what I was doing and what was happening around me. I have experieced extreme weather and knew when to hunker down. Observed oncoming changes in weather and chose to bail out. Chosen to back track when taking a bad route. I once had planned on taking a ski trip circumventing Crater Lake with a group. However I had the opportunity to ski with the leader of the trip and as a result did not trust his judgement. Rather than putting myself in a position where I might feel like challenging the leader's decision and screwing up group dynamics I decided not to go on the trip. On another occasion maverick met me in the yosemite backcountry. He suggested a route I did not feel comfortable with and told him so. He graciously decided to accompany me on the trail as we returned. The best thing about going solo for me is that I can selfishly do exactly what I want to do when I want to. It is a basically a sense of freedom that is not possible when one participates in a group or as a member of society.

"sense of freedom" sometimes means freedom from excessive worry. Last summer I did three trips solo and then two with another person. The reason I asked someone else to go with me on those two trips was being in grizzly country. Although I have soloed in grizzly country, the anxiety is ever present. In Canada, they actually require backpackers to be in groups of four or more where there are a lot of grizzlies. The Wind Rivers have a relatively low number of grizzlies, mostly in the northern part of the range. I really do not know if two people are more safe than one, but I think it does help.

Overall I enjoyed the mix of solo and having partners. Occasionally, I have met others who are compatible and we camp together for a night then part ways (the PCT style of backpacking). And the flip side; socialize on the trail on the trail where there are plenty of opportunities to mix and then part ways and camp alone. So I think there are plenty of ways to mix and match solo and group backpacking without the compatibility issues of a continuous trip with an organized group.

I used to hike extensively with a group of friends, but had to stop traveling together.

Would you want to go hiking with someone that always lagged behind never catching up, constantly whined and complained, shirked his share of camp chores, and had cheap gear that was always falling apart?



Neither did they, so now I have to hike alone.

Would you want to go hiking with someone that always lagged behind never catching up, constantly whined and complained, shirked his share of camp chores, and had cheap gear that was always falling apart?



Neither did they, so now I have to hike alone.

The biggest challenge I have with my trips is when I advise people that you need to be in XYZ physical condition. I tell them the elevation gains and distances we'll cover but, they frequently show up unable to walk the walk. I'll provide comparisons too, like the hike to Graveyards Lakes feels twice the effort of the Long Lake trip we went on last month (above Bishop). I also have problems with folks underequipping and under provisioning. One guy went on a mid September trip to Palisades basin with me. The trip was for 8 days and I advised him to be expect temps in the 20s, but could dip to single digits. So he shows up with 6 days of food and gear good only to the low 30s. Sometimes it is outright being cavalier, and disregarding my advice; other times it is a gross judgment error on their part. Why a person who camped in their youth would think daily one hour walks around the neighborhood will condition them for hike that entailed 8,000' elevation gains, covering 25 in 3 days is beyond my understanding. One friend I learned should never include on hikes that went over passes. He'd hike like a mule, and when he had enough, just stop, wherever, and declare he is going no further.

Compatibility was never an issue for me (perhaps because I am the a-hole?). People fall into five categories:

• Band of brothers. Well balanced. Make good leaders and followers. Always enjoy their company, shared deep mutual respect. Some happen to be my kind of guy; others popular in general.
• Hiking Buddies. More inclined to let others lead but have the aptitude to lead when called upon. Ideal followers. Good E-IQs, avoid confrontations. Inclined to be Type B personalities. Natural group diplomats.
• Ideologues. Better at following than leading. They like to debate. Offensive or exhausting to many, but I can enjoy taking them down logic paths they never considered.
• Anal retentives. They'll let you lead, as long as they get their way. Must stick to a firm schedule and itinerary, else expect lots of blowback from this type. They have a hard time rolling with the punches.
• Bombastards. Capricious. Almost always Type A personalities. Love to lead but lousy at it. They're right, you are wrong. They are the one most likely to cause social problems, and situations that require shortening trips.

People often fit into more than one category. Of course people are so much more nuanced, but these boxes seem to identify the trigger attributes that define much of the social dynamics of a group trip.

Generally I like talking about social issues and policies, but don't assume by any given position that I am either on the red or blue team. I'll likely argue the opposite of whatever doctrine you are attempting to promote, just to keep it interesting. Don't take me seriously, I don't. But on a more serious note, I try to find a common ground, that is where we can make progress. I want to build a sense of community and solve problems, not ridicule or assign blame. When such conversations lead to tension, it is because people think being a good citizen and person is about ascribing to their values. I try to point out I admire many people for their love of nation and mankind, regardless I may have strong disagreements with their policy stances or doctrines.

Ed