Pace on the trail

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Harlen
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Pace on the trail

Post by Harlen » Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:12 pm

I realize that I am stretching various threads, which touched on hiking pace, into the long distance running world, but hopefully some of us are interested in both. I have been very impressed with the the knowledge and scientific formulas brought into these discussions, so I have hope that the stories below will be well analysed.

For instance, Longri once wrote:
.... 4.5 mph = speed of walking to running transition
3.2 mph = optimal walking speed

It isn't terribly different. But for either height a 4 mph pace, even on ideal terrain, would be energetically wasteful. To have an optimal pace of 4 mph one would want to be about 8 1/2 feet tall.
[*Or, you must be a heroic Greek!]

So what do you all make of supposed historic fact I just read, which states that the Greek Marathon messenger was far surpassed in long distance messaging by the guy the Athenians sent first to warn Sparta that the Persians were coming. Here's the scenario from the book:

"HIstorically sound, however, is the account of the prelude to the battle of Marathon. ... An Olympic champion runner [named Pheidippides] was dispatched to enlist the aid of the Spartans. He pressed on for two days and two nights, swimming rivers and climbing mountains... a distance of about 158 miles. [and then he returned as fast as he could to get the news back to Athens.] In four days Pheidippides had covered over 300 miles of difficult country on foot"

Okay Longri, et al, what do you reckon- possible?

Now for another set of pacing facts:

"Another record... was set by a Cretan courier named Philonides in the service of Alexander the Great. He ran along the fairly level road ... a distance of 160 miles, in nine hours"

Calculations are not my strong suit, but if a great marathon pace would be 2 hours per 26 miles, then it would seem that Philonides needs to string together four great marathons back to back to get there. So, do I get to be proud of my Greek ancestors, or not?

Efharistó polí, Harlen-Xeniades
Last edited by Harlen on Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:27 am, edited 3 times in total.








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Wandering Daisy
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Re: Pace on the trail

Post by Wandering Daisy » Sat Nov 10, 2018 9:22 pm

I will only address the first guy. He went a bit less than 80 miles each day. Were he to average 4mph (fast walk or mixed walk and run), he would move 20 hours, sleep 4, assuming quickly ate snacks while walking/running. Or perhaps he slept 1 hour every 20 miles. Were he to run at all the easy parts, walk the hills he may squeeze in 5-6 hours of sleep. I am not familiar with the "mountains" he would have run, but I doubt they were very high altitude. Swim rivers? maybe a few, not so wide. Hard to say without knowing the exact route. Those dudes were also really mentally tough. I would say the feat was certainly possible, particularly when talking of an Olympic-worthy runner. Poor fellow, bet he needed lots of sleep, a good meal, massage and warm soaking bath when he got back.

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Re: Pace on the trail

Post by dave54 » Sat Nov 10, 2018 11:25 pm

I would suspect both of those accounts have an element of dramatic license in the distance and times given.
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Re: Pace on the trail

Post by balzaccom » Sun Nov 11, 2018 8:57 am

Race walkers regularly finish a race at a 10 mph rate.

Is that energetically wasteful? Of course. So is carrying extra weight, whether it's an extra set of undies, an ice axe, hiking poles, or a bottle of beer.

But there are reasons that each hiker chooses how to hike. And very few of us choose maximum energetic efficiency.
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Re: Pace on the trail

Post by longri » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:36 am

I would agree with what everybody has said in response.

Specifically, the first guy was well within the current record for a 48 hour event (401km = 249mi versus 158 claimed). The second guy who supposedly ran 160 miles in 9 hours? The current 100mi track record is 12:42. The 24h record is approximately 160 miles. So that guy would have smashed current records so thoroughly that it would have required help from Zeus or whatever the deity of the day was back then.

I was dreaming last night that when I flapped my arms really hard and kicked like a swimmer I could fly around for a few minutes 30-40 feet off the ground. I knew I was dreaming in my dream as I've had similar dreams so many times before. It just made me kick harder.

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Re: Pace on the trail

Post by Harlen » Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:39 am

dave54 writes:
I would suspect both of those accounts have an element of dramatic license in the distance and times given
.

Doubter! You probably don't believe that Odysseus shot down all those suiters either.

Greeks are different, in a heroic sort of way... They saved all of Western Civilization don't forget, and are poised to do it again.

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Re: Pace on the trail

Post by Harlen » Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:27 am

Longri blasphemes:
...Zeus or whatever the deity of the day was back then.
Zeus, whom you seem to dismiss, is The Way and The Truth and The Light .... (and also the Thunderbolt, and the Sky, and probably some other things too.)... and always has been¹, and ever will Be! ... and don't you forget it!

and then he writes:
I was dreaming last night that when I flapped my arms really hard and kicked like a swimmer I could fly around for a few minutes 30-40 feet off the ground. I knew I was dreaming in my dream as I've had similar dreams so many times before.
A seeming non-sequitur that leaves me wondering if our Longri is as bound to the world of physics as he once seemed? Is there an equation to account for the energetically efficient "flapping and kicking" motions in his dreams? And might this equation include the #of milliliters (Liters?) of blood alcohol he accumulated the night before? Is this is the man to question Zeus?
Harlen-Xeniades.

¹ Well at least ever since His mom Rhea hid him away in that cave, and fed Cronus the big stone instead of Him- He always has been after that.

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Re: Pace on the trail

Post by rlown » Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:49 am

Sorry, but where is this thread going? Everyone hikes at their own pace.

If you want to post anything during the downtime of the season, post TR's.

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Re: Pace on the trail

Post by dave54 » Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:59 am

Harlen wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:39 am
dave54 writes:
I would suspect both of those accounts have an element of dramatic license in the distance and times given
.

Doubter! You probably don't believe that Odysseus shot down all those suiters either.

Greeks are different, in a heroic sort of way... They saved all of Western Civilization don't forget, and are poised to do it again.
They make a good yogurt. And I enjoy a nice shot of ouzo every once in a while.

As for hiking, I start out slow, then taper off.
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longri
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Re: Pace on the trail

Post by longri » Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:45 pm

Harlen wrote:
Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:27 am
Is there an equation to account for the energetically efficient "flapping and kicking" motions in his dreams? And might this equation include the #of milliliters (Liters?) of blood alcohol he accumulated the night before? Is this is the man to question Zeus?

I was equating my dream with the obviously fictional story you posted.

I did have a couple of glasses of wine last night. Using the Widmark formula I'd estimate that my BAC peaked at 0.04%, which would mean a total of about 2ml of ethanol in my blood. That would have been fully metabolized by the time I went to bed, never mind hours later when I had that lucid dream.

Anyway, who do you have to be to question Zeus? Isn't he the original FSM?

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